UPSB v4
Hand Care / Repetitive Strain Injury
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 00:11:07
[B]Please, if you don’t read anything else, at least look at the prevention tips. I encourage you to read the whole thing, but that should at least get you somewhere. Introductions[/B] For those who don’t recognize me… well, that’s because I don’t post very often (read: not one post on UPSBv4… until now). So what do I think is so important that it deserves my attention tonight? Repetitive Strain Injuries (RSIs), also known as Musculoskeletal Disorders (MSDs). I’m sure that many of you have heard of these, and probably many have not as well. I only recently learned much about them, through a training course provided by my employer. Major employers spend tens of thousands of dollars every year to educate their employees as to how to avoid RSIs. The reason is simple. The alternative is to pay out millions in compensation benefits and lost productivity. So don’t you think it might be worth caring about as well? I certainly do. And I care enough to share some of this information with all of you, because it is VERY applicable to pen spinning. I hope you’ll take the time to read this over, and work to implement some of my suggestions. I promise it will only take a fraction of the time it took me to write it. If not tonight, please come back tomorrow or the next day. Give it a read. Stay healthy. And feel free to share your experiences below. [B]What is an RSI/MSD?[/B] RSIs (which I will use interchangeably with MSDs) are exactly what they sound like. They are injuries which result from repetitive motions. The more intense the motions and the longer they are performed, the more severe the potential consequences. Pen spinning is a classical example of an activity that is both repetitive and puts significant strain on the muscles and tendons in your hands. It DEFINITELY poses risks to your long-term health. I can promise that, as I suffer from a mild MSD. I’ll discuss my own experiences more in depth later on. First, let’s look at some of the potential consequences: • Discomfort and tenderness • Aches and pains • Decreased mobility of affected areas • Stiffness and/or Weakness • Tingling and/or numbness • Cramps • Swelling [B]PLEASE, IF YOU NOTICE ANY OF THE ABOVE SYMPTOMS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE CHRONIC, EMPLOY MY SUGGESTIONS RIGHT AWAY AND TRY TO REDUCE YOUR PEN SPINNING FREQUENCY/DURATION. CONSULT A PHYSICIAN IF THE SYMPTOMS ARE PERSISTENT.[/B] In more severe cases, long term consequences can occur. These include permanent damage to the hands/fingers (or other affected areas). A well known example of this type of condition is known as Carpel Tunnel. This is essentially a swelling of the tendons in your hands, resulting from overworking and rubbing against the holes in your bones that they run through. This causes them to swell and pinch the nerves, resulting in severe and debilitating pain. Long-term pen spinning is a prime example of an activity which is LIKELY to cause Carpel Tunnel or similar disorders. Please, don’t think this can’t happen to you. As I said, I suffer from a mild RSI, which limits my work capabilities, as well as my pen spinning (yes, I still spin). You are at risk. But that doesn’t mean you have to give up your hobby. Just be smart about it. We’ll get to that in a bit. [B]What are the major risk factors?[/B] • Repetitive work • Uncomfortable postures and strange body alignments • Sustained or excessive force • Carrying out a task for a long period of time • Lack of frequent breaks • Lack of stretching • Individual qualities, such as physical fitness (or lack thereof) Let’s take a closer look at those, in the context of pen spinning. Is pen spinning repetitive? Very. Especially if you’re trying to learn a new trick or practice a combo for a video/competition/showing off to your new significant other. I find that absent-minded spinning, when you’re paying attention to other things but twiddling your pen around is also very repetitive. Posture shouldn’t be a big deal for most of us, but do try to sit up straight when you spin (and the rest of the time). I’m not trying to sound like your mother here, but she’s probably right. However, when we spin we often force our fingers and wrists into very strange alignments. This can be compounded when recording, depending on the video angle. We certainly have the sustained part down (which pretty well covers the next three bullets, for those of you keeping track). What about the “excessive force” though? Typically, that is taken more to mean lifting heavy things and that sort of behavior. But we have to keep in mind that our fingers aren’t as strong as our arms and legs. The amount of force required to injure them is much less. And with heavy pens today (for example, the Dr. KT) we certainly do put a lot of pressure on our fingers. Next, how about stretching? How many of us actually stretch before we spin (kudos to you if you do… I know I don’t, or rather, didn’t)? I won’t say much about the last bullet, since it pretty much just means that some people are more at risk than others, and that some of these factors influence some more than others. However, the point about physical fitness is accurate, in a general sense. I don’t mean your hands specifically. Rather, a healthy body overall is less likely to sustain an injury from these types of activities. [B]What can I do to help prevent RSIs?[/B] Ok, now that we’ve got the background covered we’ve come to the most important part. How do we prevent these injuries? First, a little disclaimer: I’m talking specifically with reference to pen spinning here. There are plenty of other ways to get an RSI/MSD. Please consult the references at the bottom for more information. Oh, and even if you follow all of my suggestions, you still might develop some sort of injury. I, nor UPSB as a whole, accept no personal or communal liability in such an event. Please do understand that I am simply trying to help prevent RSIs. Now, on to the specific suggestions: • Try to vary your tricks and combos. When trying to learn a new trick or master a combo for a video, etc. we often repeat the same motions countless times. Make sure to take frequent breaks when doing so, and occasionally change things up a bit • Make sure your body is comfortable. Maintain good sitting posture, and keep your arms/wrists as straight as possible. Avoid twisting them unnecessarily. This is especially applicable when making a video. Try to set up your camera in a way that captures or combo well but is comfortable for your hand and arm. If possible, avoid tricks/combos which require excessive or frequent twisting of wrists or fingers. • Use a smaller/lighter pen, especially when practicing. If you chose to use something heavier for your video due to preference, that’s fine (please, no arguments about this). But especially when you’re repeating things over and over, try something light like a pencil or BicSSA, or even an unmodded RSVP. This is especially true if your combo requires many changes of direction, which put heavy strain on your muscles, joints and tendons. I am personally a fan of the F*3000. • Take frequent breaks! Shorter, more frequent breaks are much more valuable than longer, less frequent ones. Since many of us spin while browsing the internet, take a break to load a new page, scroll down, post something, etc. If you spin with both hands (or are interested in learning) you can also switch hands frequently to mitigate your risk. • Stretch before, during and after spinning. This thread contains some great videos regarding stretching and other exercises, from someone likely more knowledgeable about this than I: http://forum.upsb.info/showthread.php?t=1138 • Try to stay physically fit. I know it sounds weird… why would running a mile help you spin pens, right? Research has pretty decisively shown that physical fitness in all areas of your body reduces the likelihood of an RSI in your future. Besides, you can make it fun and it will contribute to your long-term health in plenty of other ways. • Check out the links in the references section below for more details and suggestions. Please feel free to add your own suggestions, resources and comments below. [B]So what’s your story, Eburt?[/B] I’m glad you asked! As I mentioned previously, I suffer from a mild RSI. Primarily, my right middle finger is affected, though my thumb, index finger and ring finger all also feel discomfort at times. Generally, its soreness, but can also evolve into mild aches and pains if I ignore it. I used to think it was pretty normal and nothing to worry about, until taking a training course provided by my employer. So how did I develop this RSI? A large part of it was pen spinning. I used to spin RSVP MXs almost exclusively. For the past few years, through college and starting my job, I’ve spun an unmodded RSVP. Even with these lighter pens, I’ve still developed issues. I can’t imagine what it would be like it I had spun something significantly heavier all that time. I believe that a major cause of my condition is the repetitiveness of the tricks and combos that I perform. Because I stopped learning new tricks and combos a long time ago, I tend to do the same things over and over. In particular, when I’m paying attention to something else and spinning idly I repeat the same basic combos almost every time. I also do a lot of typing/mousing, which I’m sure applies to many of you as well. Notably, I scroll ALOT using the mouse wheel, for which I use my middle finger (which is my primary concern). Please note that I am not an old man either. I’m only 22. This isn’t the type of thing which cares much about age, but rather how you care for your body over time. Since learning about these dangers, and seeing older people in my office who have regular discomfort, I’ve tried to wise up. I make sure to only spin lighter pens now (yes, I bring my favorite F*3000 to the office, and put down my writing pen to spin). I also try to stretch regularly, both when working on the computer and when doing something that allows me to spin more continuously. I have noticed improvement, but if I return to my old habits the discomfort comes back right away. RSIs are long-term things. It’s not easy to fix the complications caused by them, nor is it easy to break bad habits. So please, for the health of your hands, wrists and fingers, do your best to develop good habits now. I hope this article will help you do so. Please, try to be conscious of these issues. They are very real, and if you ignore them you may find yourself regretting it in a few short years. Thanks for reading. Regards, ~Eburt [B]References[/B] http://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/uld/whatareulds.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpel_tunnel http://osha.europa.eu/en/topics/msds/index_html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury http://web.eecs.umich.edu/~cscott/rsi.html http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/176443.php
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 01:05:51
holy crap i applaud you for this amazing post :D on the topic of the content, i am very careful with MSDs since i developed major problems in my right shoulder from playing baseball for years. i had to attend regular physical therapy for months just to ease the pain and prevent my shoulder from dislocating, so im pretty careful with this stuff :P i had no idea how severe it could get from pen spinning, but from what ive been through, i would say this is an article worth taking the 10 minutes to read.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 01:26:31
damn that scared me but ur bo$$ now i know what to do thnx shouldnt ur fingers get used to psing so why could this happe
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 01:38:56
Thats a good question Accuru. Some things the body acclimates to, and others it doesn't. Your body gets used to hot weather, for example and maintains itself better in those conditions. This is more due to "wear and tear". Think of it like a machine, lets say a break pad in a car. Eventually, part wear down (not a completely accurate analogy for all cases, such as Carpel Tunnel) and when they do, things get dangerous and painful. This happened to a lot of people who did a lot of typing before companies wised up and started giving training. And those people certainly should have "gotten used to typing". That said, this isn't meant to scare people. I still love pen spinning. But I just try to do it in a smarter way now. I hope you all will as well.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 02:12:05
Holy shit Eburt
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 02:41:28
wow, very informative and well written! Thanks Eburt!
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 03:45:48
Thanks for writing this up ^^ My mother deals with early stages of carpal tunnel, though it's really more due to an auto-immune disease that she's gotten it, so I'm aware of things like RSI and how to help prevent it in general. However, I've never considered pen spinning (unless we're assuming training a single trick or short combo over and over again without variance) something to worsen or cause it. I thought that to help deal with things like tunnel or RSI physical therapy type things will generally advise you to do exercises like writing letters in the air though -- isn't pen spinning a bit like this on some levels? I know that I would have bad tingly kinda, super-early (if anything) RSI symptoms or the like, when I played games like osu! or Stepmania type things that involve repetitive banging actions of the fingers on keys. Possibly nothing major, but left hand had pins-and-needles kind of feeling as if it feel asleep, except it wasn't so short-lived and it would happen if I made large motions or continued to do things like repetitive trills/typing with it. Naturally I took it very seriously either way, but somehow pen spinning didn't seem to make it worse in any way -- in fact, it almost helped to relax it and vary up the motion my fingers were making in a way not involving actual impact (it's softer on the fingers than typing imo, at least if you spin with a relaxed and smooth hand). Why was this the case if pen spinning should be one of the more likely causes for RSI? I don't mean this as an attack or anything, but really just an honest question so that I can be sure to understand how RSI can be caused and why pen spinning has never seemed to hurt my hands or worsen possible symptoms.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 05:14:24
Worth reading. But now I have second thoughts about pen spinning. :/ Time to switch to a tipless comssa and MX's. x)
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 05:29:11
WOW Your very first post in UPSB v4 and it was very helpful and informative . On a totally different note, when i bend my middle finger, one of my joints have been hurting for quite a long time (maybe a 6 months or so or so) does this mean i have RSI ? I read the whole thing but not quite sure yet.(I'm not good at understanding stuff when i read)It prolly began to hurt a few week after i started spinning
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 05:43:11
Very helpful post. Thank you. I might get rid of my buster. :D
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 05:45:07
Alex wrote: WOW Your very first post in UPSB v4 and it was very helpful and informative . On a totally different note, when i bend my middle finger, one of my joints have been hurting for quite a long time (maybe a 6 months or so or so) does this mean i have RSI ? I read the whole thing but not quite sure yet.(I'm not good at understanding stuff when i read)It prolly began to hurt a few week after i started spinning
dude u talk liek this guys a n00b...hes a retired moderator, meaning hes been around longer than most of us. and also, injuries like this tend to happen slowly over time, not suddenly, but you may want to consult your doctor if you feel pain btw @Eburt how long have you been around now? -
Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 07:28:42
Great read, thanks Eburt. (sun) What if, for example, I'm training to master a certain trick. And of course I'm to do the same trick over and over again, how am I to do this in a way that it doesn't invoke RSI?
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 07:59:07
Walao A nice post
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 21:47:25
@Chobi: Take another look at my suggestions. I specifically talk about this. In short, take breaks often, try to use something light and make sure you switch things up every now and then. Remember, it's much better for it to take an extra day/week/longer to master a trick than it is to have a useless hand down the road.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 21:51:41
Alright, will do man, thanks again for helping to raise awareness and such :D
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 21:57:27
I have been spinning for over four years now and I have noticed pains in both of my wrists occasionally. My left wrist has been messed up since before I started spinning but trying to spin with it does me no good. I always thought my right wrist was fine until I started getting pains. I saw a doctor and was told that I don't have proper flexibility in my wrists. Do you think that has to do with me spinning? @Eburt Also if this helps, I was spinning a KT for about three and a half years. I don't spin one currently but I only recently started spinning a lighter pen. (maybe a month ago)
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 22:01:23
@Kari: Perhaps, but it's hard to say. It sounds more like you have an existing condition (as the doctor implied), but PS might make it worse (as shown by the development of symptoms). Spinning a lighter pen is probably a good idea. You could also always show a doctor your spinning (if they're half-way decent they will take you seriously) and ask if it puts you at further risk.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 22:08:41
@Eburt I should probably ask a doctor. I never noticed last of flexibility until after I started spinning though. I also can't lay my palm on a table with my hand at a 90 degree angle to my forearm without it hurting. If I lean over for some reason I always lean on my fist because of it. My left wrist gave out on me once when I leaned on it but I'm pretty sure that's just because that wrist is weak from a previous injury. Ever since I injured it (five years back now) it has never been the same.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 22:51:42
Ok thanks. I do spin all day and hardly take any breaks
Eburt wrote: @Chobi: Take another look at my suggestions. I specifically talk about this. In short, take breaks often, try to use something light and make sure you switch things up every now and then. Remember, it's much better for it to take an extra day/week/longer to master a trick than it is to have a useless hand down the road.
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 23:44:02
@Eburt lol that explains perfectly why i havent seen you :P joined only 4 years ago ahaha. its nice to see some true old timers around though. all my respects go to you for continuing to return to this board over the years
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Date: Tue, Jul 24 2012 23:56:27
@Kyoflow: i.suk has been spinning for almost 5 years, Eriror has been spinning for 7. Zombo and Kam have been spinning at least since 1998, from what I know:jawdrop:
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Date: Wed, Jul 25 2012 01:13:40
@astronaut well yea i know that, but theyve been active in v3 and v4. i joined in v3, and by then eburt left. im well aware of the rest of the spinners whos been around for just as long if not longer. i respect them all. its just eburts been gone for awhile. just giving a warm welcome to an old timer whos been inactive for awhile. anyway this is getting off topic lol
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Date: Wed, Jul 25 2012 18:51:14
Mufoofee wrote: Very helpful post. Thank you. I might get rid of my buster. :D
Spin a signo tipped buster -
Date: Wed, Oct 17 2012 13:24:44
For some time, I can no longer make a spinner and I hurt. I really can a spinner and more I practice for four years. What can I do?
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Date: Fri, Mar 29 2013 00:08:36
I've been flipping butterfly knives for two years and I never experienced anything like that, and I flip with my once broken hand that never set right (the bone is bent at a slight angle in the back of my hand). How rare is RSI?
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Date: Fri, Mar 29 2013 00:38:35
It's fairly common.
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Date: Wed, Apr 3 2013 22:32:43
Theres a difference between "flipping" your faggot knifes and PSing
Skaunders wrote: I've been flipping butterfly knives for two years and I never experienced anything like that, and I flip with my once broken hand that never set right (the bone is bent at a slight angle in the back of my hand). How rare is RSI?
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Date: Tue, Jul 1 2014 17:45:07
Having read this original post, I am a bit concerned. I've been getting discomfort at the base of my mid and ring fingers for a few weeks now. It started when I couldn't find my light pencil mod and spent a half hour spinning a buster, which I very rarely use. I was practicing a link with several direction changes too and I stopped once it started to hurt. Is it possible to just 'pull a muscle' in your hand, or do aches and pains immediately mean RSI? I spend all day typing and using a track pad, so when I stop and think about it, my right hand must be really overworked. mpc
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Date: Tue, Jul 1 2014 20:08:11
There is no need to worry friend. Repetitive Strain Injury only happen when you do Repetitive actions that strain your hand. Honestly i don't really like buster, but it might be just that your hands are not accustomed to the weight. Going from light to heavy is a huge fluctuation so don't expect to be spinning well with that. I would say in my medical opinion that aches and pains do not immediately mean RSI. But you should be careful. Rest is always good, especially if you are constantly using your hands. Regards Zen