UPSB v4
Advanced Tricks / Devil's around/Devil's sonic
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Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 15:19:32
So the Devil's around and Devil's sonic are somewhat the same trick done into different slots The Devil's around can be notated two different ways, twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23. Or charge .5 23 > midbak rev Devil's sonic same thing as the first but instead of shadow 12-23 it would be shadow still 12-12. So i was wondering, if you were to do a twisted sonic 34-12 ~> shadow 12-34, would you still just consider that a devil's around 34-34 or would you say charge .5 34 > middleringbak rev 34-34? or would you need to fully notate the trick seeing that it would not specify as much, also if you were to do devil's around 34-23 like you would do twisted sonic 34-12 ~> shadow 12-23, would that be the correct way to notate it? or would you say charge .5 34 > midbak rev 34-23? it seems that the 2 different notations for the devil's around dont allow for much specification when doing these different slots. help?
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Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 15:31:14
well like you said the devil's sonic and around are very similar tricks.. it just depends on where the pen starts and ends.. if it follows the format of twisted sonic xx-yy ~ shadow yy-xx where xx is the starting spot, then its a devils around regardless of anything else (i believe) since arounds start and end in the same finger slot.. devils sonic on the other hand is simply the same thing but ending in any of the other finger slots besides the initial one.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 16:34:19
[QUOTE=Wonder]So the Devil's around and Devil's sonic are somewhat the same trick done into different slots[/QUOTE] No, Devil's Around and Devil's Sonic are hybrids, not tricks. [quote=Wonder]So i was wondering, if you were to do a twisted sonic 34-12 ~> shadow 12-34, would you still just consider that a devil's around 34-34 or would you say charge .5 34 > middleringbak rev 34-34? or would you need to fully notate the trick seeing that it would not specify as much, also if you were to do devil's around 34-23 like you would do twisted sonic 34-12 ~> shadow 12-23, would that be the correct way to notate it? or would you say charge .5 34 > midbak rev 34-23? it seems that the 2 different notations for the devil's around dont allow for much specification when doing these different slots. help?[/quote] Devil's Around 34 is Twisted Sonic 1.0 34-23 ~ Ringaround 0.5 23-34 ~ Charge 0.5 34. Anything else should be clarified.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 18:44:45
thig wrote: No, Devil's Around and Devil's Sonic are hybrids, not tricks. Devil's Around 34 is Twisted Sonic 1.0 34-23 ~ Ringaround 0.5 23-34 ~ Charge 0.5 34. Anything else should be clarified.
I know they are hybrids, but i said trick. does it really fucking matter? Second, your notation for devils around 34-34 is weird, and not what i was trying to get at, ringaround .5 23-34 ~ charge .5 in 34? that makes no sense , you are just trying to notate a shadow differently, because there is no ringaround .5 23-34 unless you are doing a passaround. i see what you are trying to do but the notation is wrong, but theres no reason to notate it differently than these two notations: tw sonic 34-23 ~> shadow 23-34 OR charge 34 ~> ringbak rev 34-34 -
Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 19:21:04
[quote=Wonder]I know they are hybrids, but i said trick. does it really fucking matter?[/quote] Yes, because hybrids and tricks are different. [quote=Wonder]Second, your notation for devils around 34-34 is weird, and not what i was trying to get at, ringaround .5 23-34 ~ charge .5 in 34? that makes no sense , you are just trying to notate a shadow differently, because there is no ringaround .5 23-34 unless you are doing a passaround. i see what you are trying to do but the notation is wrong, but theres no reason to notate it differently than these two notations: tw sonic 34-23 ~> shadow 23-34 OR charge 34 > ringbak rev 34-34[/quote] For Devil's Around, I prefer my notation because Shadow can have either a top spin or an around spin. My notation removes that ambiguity. It is Devil's Around, after all. I dislike using tricks with multiple spin types to describe hybrids because the type of spin is not always clear. "Tw sonic 34-23 ~> shadow 23-34" is not Devil's Around, because the 'Shadow' in Devil's Around is not complete. "Charge 34 > ringbak rev" is not Devil's Around, because that would be a combo, not a hybrid.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 19:33:22
thig wrote: Yes, because hybrids and tricks are different. For Devil's Around, I prefer my notation because Shadow can have either a top spin or an around spin. My notation removes that ambiguity. It is Devil's Around, after all. I dislike using tricks with multiple spin types to describe hybrids because the type of spin is not always clear. "Tw sonic 34-23 ~> shadow 23-34" is not Devil's Around, because the 'Shadow' in Devil's Around is not complete. "Charge 34 > ringbak rev" is not Devil's Around, because that would be a combo, not a hybrid.
dude. of course tw sonic 34-23 ~> shadow 23-34 is a devils around, and it is complete O_o the only reason it wouldnt be complete would be because of the ~> notation which means it goes into a shadow 23-34 so the shadow wont be complete, ~ on the other hand means interrupted by, which has totally different meaning, and it is still a hybrid with the charge 34 ~> ringbak rev because its kind of obvious that devil's around is a hybrid, you are really saying that its not a hybrid in itself. and seriously with the hybrid thing, a hybrid is still its own seperate trick. -
Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 20:27:19
[quote=Wonder]of course tw sonic 34-23 ~> shadow 23-34 is a devils around, and it is complete O_o the only reason it wouldnt be complete would be because of the ~> notation which means it goes into a shadow 23-34 so the shadow wont be complete, ~ on the other hand means interrupted by, which has totally different meaning[/quote] The 'Shadow' in Devil's Around is incomplete because the Shadow's push and initial 0.5 rotation are not part of Devil's Around. It is more accurate to say Twisted Sonic 1.0 34-23 ~ Shadow 1.0 23-34. But I still prefer my notation over this. [quote=Wonder]it is still a hybrid with the charge 34 ~> ringbak rev because its kind of obvious that devil's around is a hybrid, you are really saying that its not a hybrid in itself.[/quote] The problem with your revised notation here is that it neglects the Pass Rev in the Twisted Sonic part of the Devil's Around. There is a Pass Rev in Devil's Around, during rotation 0.5-1.0, and 'ringbak rev' ignores that. The pass spin type in Pass Rev and the around spin type in Ringbak Rev are not the same. [quote=Wonder]and seriously with the hybrid thing, a hybrid is still its own seperate trick.[/quote] Wrong again. A hybrid is a series of incomplete tricks, or a series of incomplete and complete tricks.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 20:30:24
thig wrote: The 'Shadow' in Devil's Around is incomplete because the Shadow's push and initial 0.5 rotation are not part of Devil's Around. It is more accurate to say Twisted Sonic 1.0 34-23 ~ Shadow 1.0 23-34. But I still prefer my notation over this. The problem with your revised notation here is that it neglects the Pass Rev in the Twisted Sonic part of the Devil's Around. There is a Pass Rev in Devil's Around, during rotation 0.5-1.0, and 'ringbak rev' ignores that. The pass spin type in Pass Rev and the around spin type in Ringbak Rev are not the same. Wrong again. A hybrid is a series of incomplete tricks, or a series of incomplete and complete tricks.
There doesnt need to be a pass rev for the devils around... a devils around can simply be notated charge 34 ~> ringbak rev... idk why you are saying it needs to have the pass rev. And dude. a hybrid i know is a series of incomplete tricks, you act as if i dont know what the fuck it is, but its still its own trick -
Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 22:17:33
You claim that Devil's Around does not necessarily include a Pass Rev. But you also used Twisted Sonic, which does include Pass Rev, in notating Devil's Around. Then Devil's Around must have a Pass Rev. In other words, your two notations for Devil's Around are not equivalent. You contradict yourself. It either has the Pass Rev, or it doesn't. They both cannot be Devil's Around. A trick is not a series of incomplete tricks, nor is it a series of incomplete and complete tricks. A hybrid is a series of incomplete tricks, or a series of incomplete and complete tricks. Hence, a trick is not a hybrid, and a hybrid is not a trick.
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Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 23:18:38
thig wrote: You claim that Devil's Around does not necessarily include a Pass Rev. But you also used Twisted Sonic, which does include Pass Rev, in notating Devil's Around. Then Devil's Around must have a Pass Rev. In other words, your two notations for Devil's Around are not equivalent. You contradict yourself. It either has the Pass Rev, or it doesn't. They both cannot be Devil's Around. A trick is not a series of incomplete tricks, nor is it a series of incomplete and complete tricks. A hybrid is a series of incomplete tricks, or a series of incomplete and complete tricks. Hence, a trick is not a hybrid, and a hybrid is not a trick.
Like i said, theres 2 different notations for devil's around. Twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23, OR charge 23 ~> midbak rev. dont ask me why they can be done either way, but thats how it can be notated, either way it is doing generally the same thing. If you do it both ways, you can see you are doing generally the same trick, you could also think of it like its about to do a pass from 23-12 but it does a midbak rev, its just that it can be done either way And fuck off with the hybrid crap, you still are explaining it to me but it doesnt change the fact that a hybrid is a trick, just like twisted sonic is a trick even though its charge ~> pass rev, in your words its technically a hybrid but cmon. we dont say its a hybrid we say its a trick, so fuck off with that -
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 03:00:38
Look here, when I provide a proof that you disagree with, you show me where it's wrong. What you don't do is repost the claim I disproved and say, "I'm right cause I say so!" I'll break it down for you. [quote=Wonder]Like i said, theres 2 different notations for devil's around. Twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23, OR charge 23 ~> midbak rev. dont ask me why they can be done either way, but thats how it can be notated, either way it is doing generally the same thing. If you do it both ways, you can see you are doing generally the same trick, you could also think of it like its about to do a pass from 23-12 but it does a midbak rev, its just that it can be done either way[/quote] I showed you how it's impossible that both of your notations are Devil's Around in my previous post. Since you disagree, you need to show me where I messed up in my proof. [quote=Wonder]And fuck off with the hybrid crap, you still are explaining it to me but it doesnt change the fact that a hybrid is a trick, just like twisted sonic is a trick even though its charge ~> pass rev, in your words its technically a hybrid but cmon. we dont say its a hybrid we say its a trick, so fuck off with that[/quote] I also showed you how a hybrid is not a trick in my previous post. Your attempt at rebuttal is comparable to a boy's tantrum. On second thought, my proof on how hybrids are not tricks is not as airtight as I would like. I think the wiki article should suffice. Here you go. http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Hybrid Now, if you still disagree with that explanation, you need to show where the wiki is wrong, not, "but cmon."
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 03:08:27
thig wrote: Look here, when I provide a proof that you disagree with, you show me where it's wrong. What you don't do is repost the claim I disproved and say, "I'm right cause I say so!" I'll break it down for you. I showed you how it's impossible that both of your notations are Devil's Around in my previous post. Since you disagree, you need to show me where I messed up in my proof. I also showed you how a hybrid is not a trick in my previous post. Your attempt at rebuttal is comparable to a boy's tantrum. On second thought, my proof on how hybrids are not tricks is not as airtight as I would like. I think the wiki article should suffice. Here you go. http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Hybrid Now, if you still disagree with that explanation, you need to show where the wiki is wrong, not, "but cmon."
you are still acting like i dont know what a hybrid is. im saying people call twisted sonic a trick, not a hybrid though it is a hybrid, im just saying you are being really stubborn about this like i dont know what it means And it is not impossible to have those 2 different notations for the trick (hybrid since you have to be a pissy bitch about calling it that) it can be done either way and is still the same trick, if you really want to break this down more, it can be twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23 or charge 23 ~> midbak rev ~> shadow 0.5 - 23 if you want to be so god damn picky about it, since that can be just like a bakrev 1.5 or 1.0 or whatever, but it is still notated both ways and can be done either way -
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 04:55:08
Wonder wrote: you are still acting like i dont know what a hybrid is. im saying people call twisted sonic a trick, not a hybrid though it is a hybrid, im just saying you are being really stubborn about this like i dont know what it means And it is not impossible to have those 2 different notations for the trick (hybrid since you have to be a pissy bitch about calling it that) it can be done either way and is still the same trick, if you really want to break this down more, it can be twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23 or charge 23 ~> midbak rev ~> shadow 0.5 - 23 if you want to be so god damn picky about it, since that can be just like a bakrev 1.5 or 1.0 or whatever, but it is still notated both ways and can be done either way
You're arguing with thig. Give up. -
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 08:26:21
for god sake just call it a 34 devils around
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 14:01:25
[quote=Wonder]you are still acting like i dont know what a hybrid is. im saying people call twisted sonic a trick, not a hybrid though it is a hybrid, im just saying you are being really stubborn about this like i dont know what it means[/quote] Twisted Sonic is not a trick, and calling it so is wrong. [quote=Wonder]And it is not impossible to have those 2 different notations for the trick (hybrid since you have to be a pissy bitch about calling it that) it can be done either way and is still the same trick,[/quote] Once again, no, your notations for Devil's Around contradict each other. The spin types of each notation are different. They cannot both be Devil's Around. [quote=Wonder]twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23[/quote] Once again, no, the shadow is incomplete in Devil's Around. [quote=Wonder]charge 23 ~> midbak rev ~> shadow 0.5 - 23[/quote] And this makes no sense. Your first "~>" implies that "midbak rev" is complete, but your second "~>" implies that "midbak rev" is incomplete. Make up your mind, please. Perhaps you should reread the RD's article on hybrid notation.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 15:31:26
thig wrote: [QUOTE=Wonder]twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-23
Once again, no, the shadow is incomplete in Devil's Around. [/QUOTE] you are aware that the ~> means interrupted right? -> means complete.. so wonder was right.. anything thats notated with a ~ or ~> means its interrupted meaning the trick isnt completely executed. -
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 15:46:35
Not quite. ~> means the trick preceding is interrupted by a complete trick. Wonder's notation suggests that the Shadow in Devil's Around is complete. Shadow is incomplete in Devil's Around. It seems you should probably read the article too.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 16:03:38
thig wrote: Not quite. ~> means the trick preceding is interrupted by a complete trick. Wonder's notation suggests that the Shadow in Devil's Around is complete. Shadow is incomplete in Devil's Around. It seems you should probably read the article too.
since when was there a difference between ~ and ~>? regardless of what the difference is between trick ~ trick and trick ~> trick, a devils sonic/around is a twisted sonic interrupted by a shadow of some sort. i still think that ~ and ~> are identical its like the same thing as doing trick > and trick ->.. negligible -
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 16:08:20
~ and ~> are not identical and never were. Please read this article. http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Interrupted_Trick_Notation Pay careful attention to the subtopic "Informal Notation Symbols." [quote=KTrihn93]a devils sonic/around is a twisted sonic interrupted by a shadow of some sort. [/quote] You're on the right track.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 20:56:15
thig you really are being a stubborn asshole about the notation of the trick, i know its incomplete thats what the god damn ~ notation is for read the wiki please [SIZE="6"]Formal notation options[/SIZE] Charge Normal 23[p][s 0.5] ~ Pass Reverse 23-12[s 0.5] ~ Shadow Normal 12-23[s 0.5][c] Twisted Sonic Normal 23-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Shadow Normal 12-23[s 0.5][c] Charge Normal 23[p][s 0.5] ~ Middlearound Normal 23-23[p][s 1.0][c] [SIZE="6"]Informal notation options[/SIZE] Charge Normal 23 ~ Pass Reverse 23-12 ~ Shadow Normal 12-23 Twisted Sonic Normal 23-12 ~ Shadow Normal 12-23 Charge Normal 23 ~> Middlearound Normal 23-23 If you read this, IT CAN BE NOTATED EITHER WAY look for yourself http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Devil's_Around
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 23:21:17
I disagree with the wiki on this point, and I already gave you my reasons why.
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Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 23:27:23
The wiki is not always correct. There have been some major mistakes in the wiki. Anyways, the notation of "Charge Normal 23 ~> Middlearound Normal 23-23" or anything like that is wrong, because Devil's Around passes through the 12 slot. At no point does "Charge Normal 23 ~> Middlearound Normal 23-23" etc. pass through the 12 slot.
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Date: Sat, Nov 13 2010 15:34:46
Help me plsss... why is it that when I do a Devil's sonic or Devil's around, I can't slip the pen out of fingers 1 and 2 to make a shadow... but I know how to do a shadow...plsss help me
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Date: Sat, Nov 13 2010 15:48:16
Hold the pen with more weight below your palm. Cause if your holding the pen with more weight above your palm (like if your doing a tw sonic bust) it'll just fly off. And also, when you let go of the pen so it can do the shadow motion, sort of lift up your index finger so it's leveled out with your middle finger. Then catch as if you just did a shadow
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Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 03:22:22
plsss help me I can do a twisted sonic then I can slip the pen out of my fingers 1 and 2 but I can't make it to make a shadow but I can slip it out
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Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 04:47:50
jcho35 wrote: plsss help me I can do a twisted sonic then I can slip the pen out of my fingers 1 and 2 but I can't make it to make a shadow but I can slip it out
You should probably learn to master shadow first before you move to learning this hybrid trick. -
Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 09:16:15
any tips from pro's how to do this???cus I'm having a hard time doing this.
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Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 09:18:50
u mean by I will keep on doing shadow over and over and do it in other fingers???
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Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 13:02:00
jcho35 wrote: u mean by I will keep on doing shadow over and over and do it in other fingers???
Yes. That would be useful. -
Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 13:14:42
ok...ty...and I want to hear tips from other pro's also^^
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Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 14:18:26
if you hold the pen farther down then its really easy to do.
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Date: Sun, Nov 14 2010 20:37:58
and btw guys, the reason i was saying it could be notated both as twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-12 or 12-23 OR charge 23 > midbak rev 23-23 is because if you do the second notation, it follow the same motion as the first notation, and passes through the 12 slot, it just doesnt have to touch the index finger
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Date: Tue, Nov 23 2010 02:18:26
"twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-12" is not Devil's Around because Devil's Around does not include a complete Shadow. "charge 23 > midbak rev 23-23" is not Devil's Around because Devil's Around uses incomplete tricks.
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Date: Tue, Nov 23 2010 04:12:26
jcho35 wrote: ok...ty...and I want to hear tips from other pro's also^^
another thing that helps is that when you start the twisted sonic in to 12, make sure your center of balance is below the hand, so that way when you do the twisted sonic into 12, you'll be in the right position for the shadow.. this took me about 2 days to get.. then it's all about linking it and getting smooth.. Making sure I did the twisted sonic into a comfortable position in 12 in order to get the shadow was my biggest fault so maybe it might be yours as well.. -
Date: Thu, Nov 25 2010 18:45:19
@thig i know its not a complete shadow, hence ~> which means interrupted by or goes into So it would be twisted sonic 23-12 ~> (going straight into without having .5 charge at the beginning) shadow still 12-12 get it? Devil's around doesn't have to use incomplete tricks, i understand it's a hybrid and hybrids are tricks put together by an incomplete trick, but if you stop being so god damn technical and read what i said about the fact that it passes through the 12 slot, just like a shadow, you'll see why I'm saying it can follow the same motion as the first notation WITHOUT having to touch the index finger. I know what you're saying but try to understand what I'm getting at that it follows the same motion
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Date: Fri, Nov 26 2010 04:18:36
"~>" means the trick preceding is incomplete and the trick succeeding is complete. "twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-12" suggests that Twisted Sonic is incomplete and Shadow is complete. "~>" does NOT mean "interrupted by or goes into." And "charge 23 > midbak rev 23-23" is a combo of two complete tricks. The only shared spin types between your two notations is the conic spin, part of the initial Charge. The pen does not follow the same motion after rotation 0.5. "twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-12" has a pass spin during rotation 0.5-1.0 and "charge 23 > midbak rev 23-23" has a conic spin during rotation 0.5-1.0. "charge 23 > midbak rev 23-23" also includes an around spin, something definitely not in "twisted sonic 23-12 ~> shadow 12-12." Your two notations do not follow the "same motion."
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Date: Wed, Dec 15 2010 17:37:47
its quite hard to remind myself to do a shadow after a twisted sonic, seeing that i dont know the shadow lol, but its not really nessesary to learn the shadow for this trick right? because you can do it without learning the shadow
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Date: Tue, Jan 25 2011 11:18:08
anyone can help me with the devil's sonic? i can do a twisted sonic 23-12 and a shadow 12-12, but i can't join them because every time i do a twisted sonic it end on my thumbflap.
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Date: Tue, Jan 25 2011 14:50:45
Errr .... You have to interrupt your TW Sonic 23-12 with your Shadow (I think it's not 12-12 anyway) Shadow as soon as your pen is between your mid & index-ring (from TW Sonic) Quite hard to explain >.>
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Date: Tue, Jan 25 2011 20:49:33
@theplayer start lower on the pen.
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Date: Tue, Jan 25 2011 23:40:40
theplayer wrote: anyone can help me with the devil's sonic? i can do a twisted sonic 23-12 and a shadow 12-12, but i can't join them because every time i do a twisted sonic it end on my thumbflap.
when you are connecting them you don't do twistedsonic>shadow its twisted sonic~shadow that means its "interrupted" what that means execution wise is that the end getting stuck on your thumbflap needs to be above your index finger during the pass, you can't actually grab it like this, it just goes on top of your hand and the motion will be a shadow motion, then its just a matter of controlling the shadow to get it wherever you want it. -
Date: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:13:58
ok i find it also very hard to do tw sonic 23-12 palm DOWN. at least that's how eso teaches you to do it. any tips? cos gravity acts completely differently :/
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Date: Wed, Mar 7 2012 10:58:05
I can't do the devil's sonic.... I need help.... I try to combine the twisted sonic and the shadow... can't seem to work....
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Date: Wed, Mar 7 2012 12:51:45
Well First. You start from back of pen. Do Twisted Sonic, but do not catch, instead let the pens momentum continue and raise your index finger. Then open finger slot to catch. That is the simplest i can make it If you want a more advanced explanation I will give you one. Also when did you start spinning?
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Date: Wed, Mar 7 2012 22:07:15
Meverynoob wrote: I can't do the devil's sonic.... I need help.... I try to combine the twisted sonic and the shadow... can't seem to work....
how long have you been spinning? if you just started you shouldn't learn this right away. also, you could try to start the tw sonic by applying pressure with your thumbflap for momentum. I'm not sure if it works though. Sorry not much help here. -
Date: Thu, Mar 8 2012 01:18:16
Karrot wrote: how long have you been spinning? if you just started you shouldn't learn this right away. also, you could try to start the tw sonic by applying pressure with your thumbflap for momentum. I'm not sure if it works though. Sorry not much help here.
Doesn't he need help with devil's sonic and linking tw sonic bust and shadow? and not with tw sonic o.o -
Date: Thu, Mar 8 2012 03:08:17
@Meverynoob search before you post next time. I've merged the thread to the original devil's sonic thread.
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Date: Thu, Mar 8 2012 21:34:52
CAHarmony wrote: Doesn't he need help with devil's sonic and linking tw sonic bust and shadow? and not with tw sonic o.o
yea but if you can gain momentum from the tw sonic, the shadow might come easier? idk -
Date: Fri, Mar 9 2012 18:28:00
thanks for the tips!!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 14 2012 06:54:08
thnx for the tips I'll try to use that momentum to do the shadow