UPSB v4
Serious Discussion / Abortion
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 07:07:46
There should be a forum on Controversial Discussion. Anyway, how do you feel about it? Post your opinion and no trolling everyone has their own opinions. IMO: It should be legal just for people that have reasons like; they got raped, or having the baby is life threatening and the abortion it self was agreed upon by the mother and doctor. BUT it is a woman's right to do what she wants to her body, so. :dunno: What do you people think?
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 08:01:22
It's a sin, :| that's murder but it still depends if the mother's life is in danger :S
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 09:13:27
BUT it is a woman's right to do what she wants to her body
I agree with this^ In first point we don't have the right to forbid these kind of things. In second if the goverment forbid these kind of things, it will still happen but then illegal. The problem is that if the abortion happen onderground the instruments they use can include diseases, cuz they don't clean them for a cheaper treatment.It should be legal just for people that have reasons like; they got raped, or having the baby is life threatening and the abortion it self was agreed upon by the mother and doctor.
My own point of view: I think it should be legal for anyone. It is proven that 80% of the teenagers have theire "first time" without protection. So that means there are alot of change for accidents!~ -
Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 09:14:50
i honestly believe its the mother's choice whether to have the abortion or not, but if she waits until the last minute to have it then she really is just killing the life inside her :/ there are too many factors to take into consideration as to whether abortion is justifiable or not
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 09:22:22
It is murder, but under 21 weeks the foetuses Brain hasn't fully developed, so it's like killing a vegetable in a human body. To be honest, I would never want to get into the situation in the first place, but it depends on the mother though as she has the say over the male. I would only go for abortion under the following conditions: 1. Mother is <12 Weeks pregnant. 2. Not married to the woman. 3. It is a harm to the mother's life (physically and socially).
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 09:32:21
you know my history teacher actually put up a good point about this once, if given the situation that the baby turned out to not have developed a brain, should the mother be forced to go through having the baby in her knowing that she would end up giving birth to a dead child
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 10:01:49
THIS IS FORBIDDEN! YOU WILL BE BURNT TO HELL
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 11:40:34
Ill try to defend my case as best as i can. as a Catholic, the way I view/have been taught about abortion is this way: In the case that a person is raped, there is a wrong.... In the case that a person is raped, and after gets an abortion, there are 2 wrongs. Perhaps aborting the baby may make the mother feel a bit better about hte past, but that will not fix the core problem or erase the past. A long time ago (not sure, i think during the Roman empire) what people did with unwanted babies were to simply leave them in the forest (yes after being born) simply to live for themsleves. Back then perhaps it was considered ok simply beacuse they were young, and not considered a human. (or something along those lines, please dont quote me here but you get the point) So then i ask the question, would you abort a 1 year old baby? a 1 month ? 1 day? Most of you would say no. How about a 1 hour old baby? How about a baby about to be born in 1 hour? Whats the difference? Most people cater to searching for a scientific answer for a question to deal with morality. the way i see it, that makes sense. We are asking ourselves is it alright for there to be abortion? "Alright" is catering to that moralistic view. Who defines morality? Science? Science is mearly a measurement of what we can observe, and what we can conclude through consistancy. No morality here. Humans? Well thats a bit better. it would be good... except for the fact taht everyone has a different view on what is right and wrong. Since we cant back oursleves up with scientific evidence, its a matter of pure opinion. I believe humans, when viewing pure opinions, without science, have equal opinions. We will be debating for ages and forever if we just leave it to humans to decide it on their own. An external objective opinion? Well thats where God shows up. You know 10 commandments, bible ....but then its a matter of what Religion you choose. Thats a different debate entirely. But at least there are far less Religions then there are people on the planet. But from a Christian Catholic point of view, it has been defined already, in that an abortion is considered murder, unless you will be saving another humans life (such as a mothers, or something along thsoe lines) then there is no wrong.
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 14:03:57
a lot of the time, the mother getting the abortion would have no chance trying to support a baby... most of the other times it's somebody stupid who has no place teaching a young mind what seems like the rest, would probably be rape victims who shouldnt be forced into such a committment sure we're killing an arguably living thing (some people think so, some dont) but how good would it's life have been anyway?
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 14:22:32
Summary about abortion: (read this carefully) "We as human to don't kill any body although it's just embryo (it's written and proven at all religion's holy book). So the result is "ABORTION IS FORBIDDEN!!!"
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 15:32:15
A tumor is a living thing, you shouldn't cut that out?
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 15:38:20
Tumors don't have consciousness. To me the only legit argument against abortion is that you're taking away an opportunity for someone to live. My opinion is that it should be legal in all cases, HOWEVER, if it were me involved I'd be strongly for having the baby then putting it up for adoption. There are tons of people who can't have kids that want them, if you're irresponsible enough to get knocked up, might as well turn it into something positive by letting someone have a child from it. Unless her health was at risk I'd be strongly for having it and putting it for adoption
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 15:57:36
If you're honesty going to use religion to justify how abortion is wrong, please, get the fuck out. Abortion has never once been mentioned in the Bible at all. Using religion as the sword to attack abortion is just plain stupid, you're not using any logic or critical thinking to support your claim, all you're doing is just blabbering how abortion is a sin when really, according to the Bible, it isn't. My personal take on abortion is that there's nothing wrong with it. Childbirth is a painful and expensive procedure, and it burdens a woman to forcibly become a mother of an unwanted child which isn't right in my opinion. It seems almost oppressive to females in a sense that men can very easily walk away from an unwanted child, while women can't.
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 16:09:30
Loanshark wrote: If you're honesty going to use religion to justify how abortion is wrong, please, get the fuck out. Abortion has never once been mentioned in the Bible at all. Using religion as the sword to attack abortion is just plain stupid, you're not using any logic or critical thinking to support your claim, all you're doing is just blabbering how abortion is a sin when really, according to the Bible, it isn't.
Calm down dude. The Pope opposes abortion, and Catholics believe the Pope has a direct connection to God, and therefore Catholics have a religious reason to be against abortion. There's nothing wrong with using religion to justify your actions in any instance. If people fully believe in God then they believe the purpose of this life is to act for Him and that's it. If they feel like he'd be against something, that's their prerogative, and they have just as much right to post here as you do with your "highly logical, critical thinking" opinions. Chillax dude. -
Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 16:28:49
Unless it is at a point in the pregnancy where the child can survive outside of the womb I'm fine with it.
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 16:30:30
Well technically at any point the baby can survive in laboratory conditions (test tube baby), but it's not economically viable usually
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Date: Sun, Oct 30 2011 16:36:12
I wish I could +1 you Strat. Regardless of what I personally believe, The option should be made legal. This is because the country I live in (US), for the most part, promotes freedom of choice. Who are we to deny women that right to choose? But personally, I believe it is wrong, for some of the reasons Strat posted above. Abortion is not exactly murder, but it takes away the opportunity for that human to grow,develop. and reach it's potential on earth. There ARE other options if the mother can not/will not take care of the child. However, responsibility and maturity plays a huge role here. If a woman conceives because of her irresponsibility, then the blame is hers. Aborting a child simply because it was a "mistake" or simply because you don't want it is kind of .....wrong. I wont even touch on the scientific aspect of this because whatever that clot of fleshy matter is, it still has the potential to function as a normal human being regardless if the fetus is young or old. This is some serious stuff, but there's nothing wrong with bringing in a scientific or religious argument.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 00:55:55
+1 Strat. Im aware that raising, and giving birth to a child is extremely difficuly task. I can not put myself in the horror or place myself in the perspective of the mother (especially incases where she is a rape victem). However, lets say the baby is 3 years old. The mother is not in a position to raise the child. Financially she is unable, she is stressed and is legitimetly, honestly, depressed about her life (and rightly so, perhaps she was a rape victem). Would you allow the mother to give the baby Euthanasia? Again, most of you would probably say no and would rather let the baby go to adoption. So i peronsally believe its not a question of how diffficult the task of having the baby. Its still fundamentally a question of when do you consider the baby in the mother to be a human. @Zkhan and Strat I disagree that it should be "legal". Having freedom of choice does not mean having freedom to do whatever we want. The US (i am a US citizen) generally has lots of freedom, but the law prevents people from stealing, killing etc. For you to say/personally believe that it is "wrong" is already a pointer to believe that it should not be legal. Dont let society water down your beliefs, stick to your guns! ;D
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 01:05:42
Yeah I mean in all honestly I could entirely see that future generations look back at us as terrible people. Look at slavery, we all say "How could they let that happen??? Didn't they think about it and realize it's awful??" But when you're raised in a culture where it's acceptable, you kinda just rationalize it. That's the same way dogfighting is a big problem in the south, they're just raised with it all around them so they don't even think about it. Or maybe we'll eventually make it fully legal and future generations will look back and say "Why wasn't that always legal??? It's the woman's body!!" It's all perception, it's like why you can eat a cow but if you eat a horse you're a monster. It's all culturally-founded morals.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 01:10:49
neoknux_009 wrote: I disagree that it should be "legal". Having freedom of choice does not mean having freedom to do whatever we want. The US (i am a US citizen) generally has lots of freedom, but the law prevents people from stealing, killing etc. For you to say/personally believe that it is "wrong" is already a pointer to believe that it should not be legal. Dont let society water down your beliefs, [B]stick to your guns! ;D[/B]
I love you ^ +1 neo Yes my religious beliefs and personal morals influence me to believe that abortion is wrong. But many will not take in consideration the religious or "moral" aspect of it. Many overlook the whole pro-choice/pro-life argument and just try to prove/disprove with scientific information. What difference does it make if the fetus is 1 week old or 2? As i stated before, it is a human organism who has the potential of being a normal human being. For whatever reason, i believe, the mother should not abort the child simply because she can not support it. Even if the woman is a victim of rape, she can put it up for adoption if she truly does not want it or can not support it. Yeah, most people nowadays see religious arguments as jokes, that's why i was a bit hesitant to talk about it -.- I was afraid someone would come at me XD However, many say that women should have the right to do what they want with their bodies--this would mean abortion would have to be made legal or placed under special circumstances. how do we approach that argument with a religious POV? -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 01:43:59
TO BE HONEST WHO THE HEEL CARES IF UR NOT GETTING ONE DONE WHO Y SHOULD U CARE. WE DONT NEED ANY MORE PEOPLE ON EARTH.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 02:08:15
^ yep, 7 billion population nao.. the 7 billionth was born in Philippines.. fck
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 02:13:02
Unless you're female, you have no say.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 02:22:24
Whoa, this is an angry thread. I think that if the girl wants to keep the baby or not, she has every right. After all, it belongs to her, it is formed from her own decisions. But i hope that before anyone goes through an abortion here, think about the life that is growing within and see that life is more precious than to be snuffed out based on a whim. So my answer is please dont abort, send it away to someone who can properly love the child (:
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 02:29:06
+1 Strat @sangara Well believe it or not there are females that support my argument...so sure i guess you can say i am kind of representing them... though not fully. but i dont think that makes the argument valid. Both male and female can raise points regarding morality, and both male and female choose to accpet it or not. ========================================================================== People have to realise the question is "is abortion ok?" What is ok? Personally i view it clearly as a question about right and wrong, and hence morals. it is not a question of: "is abotion going to make life easier?" or "Is abortion going to make a the world less popualated, and hence make life on earth easier?" To use that logic i could go steal someones car and perhaps that would make my life soooo much easier. But it does not mean its morally correct. I could have an affair , and NOT get caught and MAYBE that would make life awesome, but it does not negate the moral standards set. Less Difficult life <> Morally Correct
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 02:41:23
neoknux_009 wrote: +1 Strat @sangara Well believe it or not there are females that support my argument...so sure i guess you can say i am kind of representing them... though not fully. but i dont think that makes the argument valid. Both male and female can raise points regarding morality, and both male and female choose to accpet it or not. ========================================================================== People have to realise the question is "is abortion ok?" What is ok? Personally i view it clearly as a question about right and wrong, and hence morals. it is not a question of: "is abotion going to make life easier?" or "Is abortion going to make a the world less popualated, and hence make life on earth easier?" To use that logic i could go steal someones car and perhaps that would make my life soooo much easier. But it does not mean its morally correct. I could have an affair , and NOT get caught and MAYBE that would make life awesome, but it does not negate the moral standards set. Less Difficult life <> Morally Correct
FUCK ALL THE NIGGERS STARVING IN AFRICA. AND FUCK ALL THE OTHER AIDS INFESTED PEOPLE. I HOPE THEY ALL DIE. I HOPE SOMEBODY BURNS ANOTHER 6 MILLION JEWS. ITS WAT WE NEED. AND I HOPE ALL MOMS GET ABORTIONS OR JUST KILL THERE OWN KIDS WITH THERE BARE HANDS -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 03:26:55
If you're a male, your argument on abortion is automatically irrelevant. We as males cannot possibly begin to understand what it's like to be pregnant nor what those emotions are like. Who are we to butt in on something that we have no possible way of physically going through? I do feel that abortion should be legal in all circumstances, once you're 18 of course because you don't actually have any rights as a minor, otherwise we're denying freedoms that should be there. Laws aren't in place to protect the majority, it's the minority that matters.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 03:30:29
That's ridiculous logic. That's like saying we can't be against violent dictators because we don't know what it's like to rule china (or whatever)
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 03:36:22
strat1227 wrote: That's ridiculous logic. That's like saying we can't be against violent dictators because we don't know what it's like to rule china (or whatever)
You could possibly rule China, that's not dependent on your gender. Having a child is. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 03:37:14
But I have no idea what it's like, and I still have an opinion on it. Same thing applies
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 03:44:13
No it doesn't, I'm saying that because you couldn't possibly be pregnant then you have no say on it. I'm not saying that "Oh because you're not an animal lover you can't say anything about animal rights.". This is the only case that I can think of that this would come up. It is physically impossible to be pregnant as a male, deal with it. EDIT: Just thought of another case and that's having your period which again, a male cannot go through. I'd hope that there's no real controversy over going through your period.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 03:52:25
Having a period isn't a moral dilemma ... Unless you give some reason that not being able to go through it means inherently you aren't allowed to have an opinion on it, you're just being stubborn. It's not my obligation to "deal with it", it's yours to substantiate your claim. You're making so many logical fallacies it's absurd ... You can't just repeat over and over "you don't get an opinion because you can't go through it", unless you give a reason why that matters at all.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 04:03:25
A quadriplegic from birth can't possibly know what it's like to strangle a man, does he not get an opinion on whether it's morally right or wrong?
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 04:27:23
strat1227;147057]Having a period isn't a moral dilemma ...[/quote] I never said it was, I was just trying to possibly come up with another situation where my argument can work, but because you're right and a period isn't a moral dilemma this really is the only situation which this argument can work. [QUOTE=strat1227;147057]Unless you give some reason that not being able to go through it means inherently you aren't allowed to have an opinion on it, you're just being stubborn. It's not my obligation to "deal with it", it's yours to substantiate your claim. You're making so many logical fallacies it's absurd ... You can't just repeat over and over "you don't get an opinion because you can't go through it", unless you give a reason why that matters at all.[/QUOTE] You can't seem to grasp the context by which I'm using this logic. I never once said that you can't have an opinion on it, I'm saying that in a debate, or a congressional hearing, or what ever public forum that's deciding a law like this, a male's opinion should be thrown out automatically. This law should be decided by women, and you know what I'll specify that because I have a feeling that maybe you would be able to nit pick this, who have the ability to carry and give birth to a child. So yes, that means that any woman who has a genetic defect, birth defect, or what have you should also have no say in this either. In layman's terms (because you obviously need them): You may have an opinion, however, it is irrelevant because you have a penis. [QUOTE=strat1227 wrote: A quadriplegic from birth can't possibly know what it's like to strangle a man, does he not get an opinion on whether it's morally right or wrong?
You're just making yourself look like an ass. You must have tried really, really hard to think that one up. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 04:32:51
People, freedom of action does NOT mean freedom from consequences of that action. If you are irresponsible enough to get pregnant by accident (esp. when condoms are so cheap) then you should be stuck with the consequences. You took the risk of having a baby for the pay off of pleasure, and you lost the gamble. If you are gambling and you lose all your money, you cant just take it back. It has already happened. And also, im a religous Catholic, and just let me say this. Remember that time when we let religion guide our opinions and actions? What was it called? The Dark Ages? Hmmm. Then when people started to think logically we had a rebirth of culture. Just my opinion.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:05:52
a male's opinion should be thrown out automatically
Again, you're just stating that over and over without saying why ... I reread all your posts and I can't find anything where you say WHY you think that not being able to go through it means you shouldn't get a say ... Im not trying to trying to argue with you, just understand where you're coming from. It's dumb to argue with people on abortion because everyone already has their own opinions. But IMO just stating something as fact without saying why you think that is just as dumb ... One explanation or reason is all Im asking for ... And maybe Im just a simple layman, but I still have no idea why my example is even slightly different. Women with genetic disorders dont get a say, but men with genetic disorders do? What could possibly be the rational behind that? -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:24:11
sangara wrote: If you're a male, your argument on abortion is automatically irrelevant. We as males cannot possibly begin to understand what it's like to be pregnant nor what those emotions are like. Who are we to butt in on something that we have no possible way of physically going through? I do feel that abortion should be legal in all circumstances, once you're 18 of course because you don't actually have any rights as a minor, otherwise we're denying freedoms that should be there. Laws aren't in place to protect the majority, it's the minority that matters.
I'm sorry I forgot to bold it for you. How silly of me. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:29:47
Fucking hell. You guys need to slow down, stop arguing absolutely ridiculous points and see the general idea of each individual's posts instead of attacking 'flaws' in their arguments. You are turning a blind eye to the key points in each other's opinion. This isn't a black and white topic, there's a huge range of greys in between. So stop being retarded and accept each other's opinions realizing that what you say is more than likely [B]not[/B] going to change their opinion on abortions. With that being said, personally I have no clue where I stand in this. I have a huge ethical and moral opinion against abortions but I can't ignore the fact that when something is so small and undeveloped to the point in which it have no conscious, there may be no harm in killing it. A HUGE amount of our cells die each day, a lot of them being daughter cells in guys. That's a huge amount of half babies and if you take that perspective then think of the amount of potential life there could be if girls were continuously pregnant and not 'wasting' their eggs. Talking spiritually, I personally believe in souls. Now I don't believe daughter cells have souls which make my whole last ramble redundant to me but maybe it will get you thinking. With that being said, I don't know when a soul could be infused with a body. This is what really makes abortions for me at least very confusing. I have no strong opinion about abortions yet I seriously dislike the idea of it. Anyone's opinions could be different which is why no one is right or wrong. It's almost like a religion debate. I'm siding with Sangara here though this time Strat I'm afraid. We aren't guys and things are different when you're a girl.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:36:51
"We as males cannot possibly begin to understand what it's like to be pregnant nor what those emotions are like." emotions are NOT a good means to measure morality. Simply: If i feel like stealing someones car, and i REALLY feel like it, then can i steal it? After all, "Your not me" you do NOT know how "[B]I [/B] feel". And yes there are people who act this way. Ill just go to an extreme case. For example some Pcychotic people, etc might have an urge/have a feeling to kill people. Do you want a room full of people with pcychotic people to have an opinion on what they can and cannot do? So Since we have no idea [B]how these psychos feel[/B], we should have no opinion on their urge to kill other people, and let them do what they want? Bad argument.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:42:15
@Twine I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, I'm just trying to understand where everyone is coming from. These threads are pointless bitch-fests if everyone doesn't give their OPINION (and recognize it as such), and state WHY that's their opinion. Believe it or not, nobody is going to convince someone of something this emotional with a post over the internet (I know, who'd have thought??) So it's not siding with me or against me, I'm not making an argument, I'm just trying to understand everyone
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:43:56
sangara wrote: I'm sorry I forgot to bold it for you. How silly of me.
I read that, but what is the connection between the two facts? We can't understand what it's like to be pregnant. Why, in your opinion, does that mean we can't make a judgement of what actions are moral or immoral? That's the connection I'm asking you to make. EDIT: The law isn't about UNDERSTANDING what someone did or why they did it, it's about judging the outcome of their actions. I can understand why someone might murder someone who's abusive, but that doesn't mean it's right. Double EDIT: And I'd still love any reasoning why my example isn't relevant ... -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:52:03
Well I guess you guys are missing my actual point, I'm not actually saying anything about abortion, why it's morally wrong/right whatever your stance may be. I'm saying that a male does not have the right to impose some sort of formal law against it, restricting a woman's freedom.
neoknux_009 wrote: "We as males cannot possibly begin to understand what it's like to be pregnant nor what those emotions are like." emotions are NOT a good means to measure morality. Simply: If i feel like stealing someones car, and i REALLY feel like it, then can i steal it? After all, "Your not me" you do NOT know how "[B]I [/B] feel". And yes there are people who act this way. Ill just go to an extreme case. For example some Pcychotic people, etc might have an urge/have a feeling to kill people. Do you want a room full of people with pcychotic people to have an opinion on what they can and cannot do? So Since we have no idea [B]how these psychos feel[/B], we should have no opinion on their urge to kill other people, and let them do what they want? Bad argument.
Who said anything about morality? For that matter what are you even saying? Strat is at least way more on top of what I'm saying. To me what your saying is, "Hey you know what guys? Let's just not take each other's stuff and not kill each other.". I'm so down for that, that sounds like a great world to live in. Everything you've put forward has nothing to do with the gender specific issue of being pregnant. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 05:56:56
sangara wrote: I'm saying that a male does not have the right to impose some sort of formal law against it, restricting a woman's freedom.
Lol we're going in circles ... I 100% understand WHAT you are saying. I'm asking WHY you are saying it. If you want to just stop going back and forth that's fine lol, I guess we've both said what we're going to say, maybe I'm just missing something. But as far as I can tell, you haven't stated why you think that, only that that's what you think ... Anywho, looking forward to checking back into this convo tomorrow afternoon, bed now. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 06:07:05
strat1227 wrote: I read that, but what is the connection between the two facts? We can't understand what it's like to be pregnant. Why, in your opinion, does that mean we can't make a judgement of what actions are moral or immoral? That's the connection I'm asking you to make.
The connection is, being able to be pregnant is solely based upon your gender. We can all feel what it's like to want to kill someone, steal something, love someone, hate someone, these are all universal things. This is the one thing, the one thing that separates us as humans, so why are we able to force our inexperienced opinion upon them? -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 07:07:15
sangara wrote: Well I guess you guys are missing my actual point, I'm not actually saying anything about abortion, why it's morally wrong/right whatever your stance may be. I'm saying that a male does not have the right to impose some sort of formal law against it, restricting a woman's freedom. Who said anything about morality? For that matter what are you even saying? Strat is at least way more on top of what I'm saying. To me what your saying is, "Hey you know what guys? Let's just not take each other's stuff and not kill each other.". I'm so down for that, that sounds like a great world to live in. Everything you've put forward has nothing to do with the gender specific issue of being pregnant.
actually no im not missing your point. [B]I think your missing my point[/B]. Your view is that because we are NOT FEMALE and cannot UNDERSTAND HOW THEY FEEL. we have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT in having a say in what they can do with regards to the law because it will remove their freedom. That point is self defeating. Let me stress this again. If your logic holds then I COULD come to a conclusion like the following in extreme cases: [B]"My view is that because we are NOT PSYCHOTIC KILLERS and cannot UNDERSTAND HOW PCYCHOTIC KILLERS FEEL, we have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT on imposing what they can do with regards to the law. Only PSYCHOTIC KILLERS can have a say one what they can do so it does not impose on their freedom"[/B] See the error here? I hope you do anyway. I dont understand how you ignore "Morality", and use the word "Formal Law". Ever asked what a whole bunch of these laws are trying to uphold? Morality is the big issue here, not the law. If it had to do with law just move to a different country or state. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 13:47:52
Actually you know what's kind of funny about your argument is that we already do that exact same thing, its called pleaing (spelling?) insanity. However it still has nothing to do with gender.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 14:19:19
Yamaguchi wrote: It's a sin, :| that's murder but it still depends if the mother's life is in danger :S
Agreed Killing an infant is cheating that fetus out of a possible life. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 17:09:29
juggalo666666 wrote: Agreed Killing an infant is cheating that fetus out of a possible life.
Scrambled eggs is cheating 3-5 (depending on hunger) chicken out of a possible life and thusly disabling any chance of a career as nuggets. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 17:44:57
sangara;147046][B]If you're a male, your argument on abortion is automatically irrelevant. We as males cannot possibly begin to understand what it's like to be pregnant nor what those emotions are like.[/B] Who are we to butt in on something that we have no possible way of physically going through? I do feel that abortion should be legal in all circumstances, once you're 18 of course because you don't actually have any rights as a minor, otherwise we're denying freedoms that should be there. Laws aren't in place to protect the majority, it's the minority that matters.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=sangara wrote: Actually you know what's kind of funny about your argument is that we already do that exact same thing, its called pleaing (spelling?) insanity. [B]However it still has nothing to do with gender[/B].
:facepalm: Edit: I understand what you are trying to say but we need reasons why you think that way. Many people, mostly women, say that if men could get pregnant than abortion wouldn't be a problem. So I want to know why you might feel that way. Like strat said, "I am just trying to understand everyone." -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 18:13:36
neXus wrote: Scrambled eggs is cheating 3-5 (depending on hunger) chicken out of a possible life and thusly disabling any chance of a career as nuggets.
apples to oranges, and I would have expected nothing less than a reply like this neXus. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 18:43:56
juggalo666666 wrote: apples to oranges, and I would have expected nothing less than a reply like this neXus.
I never disappoint, sir. Abortion should be legal. Asking others to carry out a baby they don't want, that will negatively affect their life, is fucking selfish as fuck. Sure there is adoption, but not everyone is comfortable with the idea of having a child in this world and not knowing how it is doing or if it even is alive. I believe the psychological distress this puts on a woman is much greater than the distress an abortion causes especially if the abortion is absolutely wanted by the woman for whatever reasons she may have. I'm looking up the number for abortions yearly worldwide and the results vary from 42 to 46 million. Now imagine every one of those babies being born and since you bring up the solution: Imagine all those babies in an orphanage, no parents, up for adoption. It is a dumb selfish idea to ask someone else to basically fuck their lives over because you believe that the life of that clump of cells is worth something. Why do we care so much about the lives of these fucking cells? We send people into war almost every day knowing the consequence for them might be death. Humans don't care about life THAT much, not unless it affects themselves. And black man please with the bible stuff. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 19:41:49
Im with neXus on this one. An unwanted baby is a waste of money, time, space ect, and would that child really have a happy life? And the mother, waking up every day thinking of what pain their unwanted child is going through. Wrap your dick up. Nuff said.
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 22:39:10
Mufoofee;147218]:facepalm: Edit: I understand what you are trying to say but we need reasons why you think that way.[/quote] That's the reason, that because we as males cannot be pregnant we don't get to make any formal decisions on it. I don't see why I need another reason for that and I really don't get how it's that confusing. [QUOTE=Mufoofee wrote: Many people, mostly women, say that if men could get pregnant than abortion wouldn't be a problem. So I want to know why you might feel that way. Like strat said, "I am just trying to understand everyone."
Never heard this, but I think that statement is retarded. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 22:58:18
Laissez faire?
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Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 23:17:48
sangara wrote: That's the reason, that because we as males cannot be pregnant we don't get to make any formal decisions on it. I don't see why I need another reason for that and I really don't get how it's that confusing.
TBH I still don't understand why you think that matters at all. Take skinny vs fat people for example. Yes skinny people CAN PHYSICALLY eventually become fat. But if a skinny person has never been fat in their whole life, they have NO IDEA what it's like. And besides, as you said yourself, what you're saying doesn't only apply to abortions, it applies to EVERYTHING a woman does. Men can never understand what being a woman is like, so there need to be 2 entirely different rulebooks? One made by men for men, and one made by women for women? It just doesn't make very much sense to me that you could actually think that ... Agree to disagree I guess ... -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 23:38:49
@sangara alright. here we go again. Im sorry i guess we can "plea to be insane". lets try again. Lets say someone actually killed someone (happens everyday!) . Now a lot of you probably have not killed anyone (unless through abortion!! ironically haha but lets skip that for now) : [B]"My view is that because we are NOT KILLERS and cannot UNDERSTAND HOW KILLERS FEELS, we have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT on imposing what they can do with regards to the law. Only KILLERS WHO HAVE KILLED PEOPLE can have a say one what they can do so it does not impose on their freedom."[/B] and hence "IN ORDER To judge them, WE MUST KILL A PERSON SO WE KNOW HOW THEY FEEL" Again I will use your logic against you: Gender is property of person. Somone being Female is a property and it so happens that she can be pregnant and go through all the emotional troubles and pains (im not watering this down, it can really be hard im aware) Being A killer is a property of a person. Somone being a killler is a property and it so happens that since they have killed someone they can go through all the emotional troubles and pains that only a killer would understand. Your argument can not hold. If it does it would make all the judges, even you, judging that someone is wrong for killilng an innocent person negated. So i still hold that you can create laws and limits of females even if you are male. I hope everyone sees that as well.
neXus wrote: I never disappoint, sir. Abortion should be legal. Asking others to carry out a baby they don't want, that will negatively affect their life, is fucking selfish as fuck. Sure there is adoption, but not everyone is comfortable with the idea of having a child in this world and not knowing how it is doing or if it even is alive. I believe the psychological distress this puts on a woman is much greater than the distress an abortion causes especially if the abortion is absolutely wanted by the woman for whatever reasons she may have. I'm looking up the number for abortions yearly worldwide and the results vary from 42 to 46 million. Now imagine every one of those babies being born and since you bring up the solution: Imagine all those babies in an orphanage, no parents, up for adoption. It is a dumb selfish idea to ask someone else to basically fuck their lives over because you believe that the life of that clump of cells is worth something. Why do we care so much about the lives of these fucking cells? We send people into war almost every day knowing the consequence for them might be death. Humans don't care about life THAT much, not unless it affects themselves. And black man please with the bible stuff.
If you had a 5 year old brother to care of, and you had little food and little money, would you take care of him? Or at least try to? Or would you leave him on the streets? Me personally I would TRY to take care him, regardless of the pain and suffering I would go to because he is my brother. OR another good alternative would let him be taken care of by another person. So in this case you would take care of them, then clearly the "difficulty" as harsh as it may be is, was not used to measure "how correct or how moral or how legal" it was to leave your brother. In the case that you did not take care of them or TRY to at all, most people would see that negatively, or morally incorrect. You bring up numbers. Personally I dont see numbers as a measurement of whether abortion is right or wrong. So your saying taht if we had like 10 people on earth, abortion shuold be made illegal? I think this is bad because with this mindset then in the future when the world is overpopulated we would let all the masses die without worrying because of a high number. The future might get rid of hospitals, get rid of doctors. We would place resources above importance of human beings. After all, it will save the world lots of room and lots of resources! And there are humans that care about life that much. IM one of them. There are coutnless organizations, and groups and countries that care dearly about life. IM sure if you had a dying person in your bedroom, the least you could do it call an ambulance. And yes, im aware overpopulation is a big problem. People getting pregnant early without having money is a problem also. However, I believe the answer is to be responsible with your body. Know when and how. I dont believe the answer is abortion. And btw, if you were mentioning me as the black man I have not even mentioned one verse in the bible to argue abortion simply because I knew there were people who wouldl not reference the bible. I did metion it to argue someone who WAS mentioning the bible, accusing me if a biblical falacy. However you do have a good point about the cells. I will answer that later. i g2g now. -
Date: Mon, Oct 31 2011 23:52:28
strat1227;147278]TBH I still don't understand why you think that matters at all. Take skinny vs fat people for example. Yes skinny people CAN PHYSICALLY eventually become fat. But if a skinny person has never been fat in their whole life, they have NO IDEA what it's like. And besides, as you said yourself, what you're saying doesn't only apply to abortions, it applies to EVERYTHING a woman does. Men can never understand what being a woman is like, so there need to be 2 entirely different rulebooks? One made by men for men, and one made by women for women? It just doesn't make very much sense to me that you could actually think that ... [/QUOTE] This makes no sense to me, what does being fat versus being skinny have to do with anything? How does this compare in anyway to something like pregnancy? Also, I said multiple times that this only works for pregnancy, I don't feel like going back and quoting those things. [QUOTE=neoknux_009 wrote: @sangara alright. here we go again. Im sorry i guess we can "plea to be insane". lets try again. Lets say someone actually killed someone (happens everyday!) . Now a lot of you probably have not killed anyone (unless through abortion!! ironically haha but lets skip that for now
See this is why you seriously have a problem with my statement, you're already so far into your own that you absolutely see abortion as murder. That's why this isn't making sense to you, for some reason you feel this moral obligation to uphold the sanctity of life, I'm going to guess religion. I do not see abortion as murder, that's what allows me to have the stance that I do. You on the other hand keep coming back to this asinine argument about people killing other people and how we don't "understand" what's going on in their head. -
Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 00:04:15
Pro-choice... end of story this is america it is the "land of "freedom""
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Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 00:13:06
sangara wrote: This makes no sense to me, what does being fat versus being skinny have to do with anything? How does this compare in anyway to something like pregnancy?
Wasn't that the entire basis of your stance? That we don't know what it's like so we have no say? Or in your words, "so why are we able to force our inexperienced opinion upon them?" I just can't follow your line of reasoning at all, and I don't understand what has been any different from ANY of the examples I've given I'm inexperienced at being the leader of North Korea, and I have no fucking clue what it's like to rule a country, but I can still condemn Kim Jong Il. I'm inexperienced at being a woman, and I have no idea what it's like to be pregnant, but I can still make judgement on what's right or wrong to do in that case Dunno, unless you convey some reason they're fundamentally different (other than "you can physically be the leader of a country", because that doesn't mean anything if I haven't actually done it), I think I'm just gonna bow out of this conversation lol, I feel like you're talking in circles ... EDIT: WHEW, I'm so glad suppy came along with the be-all end-all opinion. Now we can all live happily because suppy has the final authority lol. I don't understand ... if there's a raging debate about it, and the freaking supreme court can't figure it out, how can someone come in and post "END OF STORY" lol. It's obviously more complicated of an issue than a 1-line post can resolve... -
Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 00:19:31
It's only going in circles because you can't grasp my point that this is the only time this could ever be applied.
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Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 00:22:20
Because you won't explain that point ... I get it. I can't ever be a woman. Nor can I ever be the leader of North Korea. Why are they different? Just because it's physically possible for me to be the leader of North Korea doesn't mean I have some sort of mystical insight into what it's like. They're both equally unknown experiences to me. Without being condescending or defensive, explain the difference and this can all just be done lol. The only reason this has gone on so long is because you still haven't explained the difference, all you've done is call me and ass and a layman and stubborn for just asking.
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Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 00:34:59
Wait, I need to explain the difference between being a man and a woman? Whoa, didn't realize we were going back that far.
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Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 00:48:08
And that's exactly why you haven't gotten anywhere. I asked you a direct, simple question about your stance and you reply with a condescending, douchy response. I'm not even trying to argue that you're right or wrong, just asking you a question and you refuse to answer. Maybe there's a reason for that, I dunno. But you're clearly not interested in a real discussion, so I won't bother you about it any more.
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Date: Tue, Nov 1 2011 23:48:13
sangara wrote: See this is why you seriously have a problem with my statement, you're already so far into your own that you absolutely see abortion as murder. That's why this isn't making sense to you, for some reason you feel this moral obligation to uphold the sanctity of life, I'm going to guess religion. I do not see abortion as murder, that's what allows me to have the stance that I do. You on the other hand keep coming back to this asinine argument about people killing other people and how we don't "understand" what's going on in their head.
Actually, the reason why I was bringing up "killers" is go to an extreme case. The purpose was not to emphasis my position on viewing abortion as murder, it was simply meant to highlight the fact that your logic on why men cant have views/statements on abortion is ridiculous. Another reason i used "killer" was so that i can emphasis that while its "impossible" (or in the case of a killer i would try not to kill someone) to be someone, it does not negate opinions/statemnets/views. Being a killer also involves "mental/emotional" results that some/most people cannot relate to. Me and strat have the exact same opinion on your statement. Think hard on what your saying. Because some people happen to have Property A, and it is unique to these people, a person who does not have property A has no right to say what someone with property A can do in society. Property A could equal = Being A women, being a killer, being depressed, having mental illness, growing up in a 3rd world country, growing up in America, growing up in Australia, ruling North Korea So lets replace the words now, again for the 3rd time. Because some people happen to have Have Mental Illness, and it is unique to property A, a person who does not have Mental illness has no right to say what someone with Mental illness can do in society. These cans and cannots include: "how much drugs you can take", "killing others with the emotional feeling to kill others" , "stealing with a a strong emotion to steal" Now because I cannot physically feel how its like to have mental illness, that does mean I cannot place a law on mentally ill people not to kill (its equal for everyone of course). -
Date: Sun, Dec 4 2011 23:09:30
I'm okkay with abortion,but im in no place to say no to it in the first place because i'm a male.
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Date: Wed, Dec 7 2011 13:04:15
Yamaguchi;146748]THIS IS FORBIDDEN! YOU WILL BE BURNT TO HELL[/QUOTE] get your religious bullshit out of here [QUOTE=Reverse;146783]Summary about abortion: (read this carefully) "We as human to don't kill any body although it's just embryo (it's written and proven at all religion's holy book). So the result is "ABORTION IS FORBIDDEN!!!"[/QUOTE] where in the religious book does it say a woman cant chose to abort her own baby, to be more exact what page and what book. [QUOTE=suppyfezzy wrote: Pro-choice... end of story this is america it is the "land of "freedom""
How can something that isnt even born yet have freedom? and its *America btw. -
Date: Wed, Dec 7 2011 17:39:40
AoD1 wrote: How can something that isnt even born yet have freedom? and its *America btw.
Lol that last one you quoted clearly said "pro-choice", he was agreeing with you ... -
Date: Wed, Dec 7 2011 22:23:18
strat1227 wrote: Lol that last one you quoted clearly said "pro-choice", he was agreeing with you ...
I think pro choice means pro life which means anti abortion, i could be wrong though . -
Date: Thu, Dec 8 2011 03:32:39
MassiveInvader wrote: I think pro choice means pro life which means anti abortion, i could be wrong though .
Nope, pro choice means the woman has the CHOICE of abortion ... pro-life is anti-abortion ... -
Date: Thu, Feb 16 2012 04:34:29
i say it's the mother's choice.
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Date: Thu, Feb 16 2012 17:50:59
Pro-life. End.
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Date: Tue, Feb 28 2012 17:27:16
I am only posting this because when I was looking over the Serious Discussion page I noticed that the thread on abortion had 69 posts, and the thought of both of those together is sort of well... it's not pretty. so heres post 70.
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Date: Tue, Feb 28 2012 19:30:30
juggalo666666 wrote: I am only posting this because when I was looking over the Serious Discussion page I noticed that the thread on abortion had 69 posts, and the thought of both of those together is sort of well... it's not pretty. so heres post 70.
stop posting useless shit. this isnt spammers bin. anyway, i agree with penja. im pro choice. it is a womans choice to have a child or not, and by making abortion illegal, youre forcing her to bear an unwanted baby. if she happens to bear the baby anyway, put him/her up for adoption unless the mother has the will and financial ability to raise -
Date: Wed, Feb 29 2012 05:12:10
let the broad do what she wants. it's her body. My uncle is pro-abortion. KILL EM ALL!!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 29 2012 06:08:54
I am against it (unless in special circumstances). So technically, I am prolife. But its not about the baby. Its that if you are irresponsible enough to get pregnant by accident, then you should be stuck with your punishment.