Naming Committee / [topic][5.8] Notation that covers anything with 2 hands & use of palm/back as "slots"

  1. Iota
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 05:32:25

    NOTE: This will take competency is algebra/vector concepts, simple ones, and an understanding of how we can apply them to the Penspinning "Logical Sandbox", if you will, by analogy/comparison. Lets say we want to do a combo, but have the left hand be a beat behind by starting it off with a twisted sonic 34-23 before starting the combo like the right hand is. We could do this, making the obvious rule that if a portion of the breakdown doesn't include the notation for offhand, it's ignored with offhand, and the breakdown progresses all at once from a given time, as in if the tw. sonic is ignored cuz it isn't given the modifier for offhand as well, you skip to the first trick done with offhand and do it at the same time as you'd start the twisted sonic with the mainhand. We'd have this: [Twisted sonic 34-23]^ > [combo you want to be offset by one beat]^v where "^" notates mainhand and "v" notates offhand. Basically, we use principles of math regarding distribution and basic multiplication to have the modifier/clarifier as to which hand(s) the tricks within a bracketed or parenthesis-enclosed set are performed on. As such, if you have a 1p2h combo, just bracket each section based on what hand it's in and give it the main/offhand notations. Note that as a rule, the number coming first is the finger above, so 2^1v is the slot made of finger 2 mainhand above finger 1 offhand. If there is a transition that uses slots mixed from both hands, just open your brackets and use the "^" and "v" after the starting/ending slots or finger numbers, like this, with parenthesis around something like 2^1v for visual clarity: [blah blah blah combo stuff with mainhand]^ > Pass Rev. (12)^-(2^1v) > Pass Rev. (2^1v)-(12)v > [blah blah blah combo stuff with offhand]v > [continue at will, with most transitions that don't involve compound stuff being much simpler than that example] You can see how it's very simple to notate a synched 2p2h combo, as it's just: [combo/breakdown]^v Indicating to do the whole thing with both main and offhand, and since there is no beat-offsetting trick beforehand or in the middle that's done on only one of the hands, we know that the tricks are executed at the same time on both hands, aka synched. For fully asynchronous spinning, in which two totally different or more significantly different combos are done, one on each hand, just split them up and write them as if splitting up a vector into it's corresponding components [B]r[/B]=[B]r[/B]x + [B]r[/B]y (x and y would be subscripts). You would get something like this, and it would be clear that the plus sign used between each combo means that the components for the async 2p2h are done at once, and are different to the extent that they must be split up. we're treating the entire async combo as a vector entitled [B]A[/B] (bolding not needed for simplicity's sake if one were to actually use this notation, its just to clarify right now that it is like a vector) where the async tricks at any given point act as the ^ and v components of the vector if you will, in that at each given instance the combo "vector" has a mainhand and offhand component to it: [B]A[/B] = [Tw. sonic 34-23 > pass rev. 23-34 > ringaround 34-34 > TA 34-TF]^ + [Charge 34 > FL Thumbindexmiddleringaround 1.5 TF-34 > charge rev. 34 > pass 34-23 > twisted sonic bust 23-12]v If you're wondering about 2p1h, or any similar/higher case of the form npmh, where n is a positive integer greater than 1, and m is either 1 or 2, and with m=1 n=\=1, then simply do something like assign a number to each pen (to remain constant as if a label for each pen, even if you do something like 4p2h and swap a pen in one hand for one in the other), to differentiate between a sonic in mainhand with either pen one or two, you'd have [sonic 23-12]^1 vs. [sonic 23-12]^2, where 1 is the label for pen one, and 2 for pen two. Now, with all that being said, I believe that I've covered everything that has raised issues with regards to multiple hands, pens, etc. As such, I'd like to move on to the concept which I see as necessary, that of allowing the notation for palm, P, and back of hand, B, within starting/ending slots. I see this often to explain tricks that otherwise couldn't be broken down, e.g. that wiper you see Baaron do a lot where he uses his index finger and palm rather than index and thumb. That would, as common sense would suggest, simply be called Wiper P1. This helps remove some ambiguities from certain hybrid notations, as you could call the "Littleboy finisher" as it actually occurs, Swivel P-B ~ Palmspin B-P ~ Swivel P-B ~ (palm up) Symmetrical Bak B-TF. This seems much more clear to me than needlessly saying a random slot that would never be used simply as a placeholder, and implying that the ~ means it doesn't even matter that said slot exists. E.g. something like Swivel 4-12 ~ palmspin 4-12 ~ TA or w/e, where you have to put slots in to show how the motion and interruption is timed, but that serve no purpose but to confuse the reader. I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented, as many people use it where absolutely needed as is, just, not when they THINK it isn't needed, so it may be that other ambiguities in complex hybrids crop up that could be cleared up simply by the B and P inclusion as hypothetical slots/starting/ending places, which can be used in conjunction with real slots as in P3 (hold with ring and palm). Hopefully those of you who can understand this fully and conceptually see some merit and potential in it, as I know for a fact that prior to any of what I've just suggested, we've had no objective and standardized means of notating a 1p2h combo with compound transitions or even without, or a 2p2h asynced, desynced, offbeat, OR synced combo. If you're going to simply say that "it's too complex and defeats the purpose," then don't bother unless you have a reasonable explanation and argument as to why this is an inefficient means of breaking such things down, and as to why there is a marginal benefit of choosing not to break down such combos over breaking them down by this means which renders these methods undesirable. NOTE: The ^ and v notations for main and offhands, respectively, are obviously only one option, and are tentative. I feel they are simple to see and differentiate between, as opposed to ` and ', and you must note that it is necessary to have a symbol for mainhand too when doing compound/synced/offbeat stuff, so just having ` for offhand doesn't cut it. This took a bit of time to write out, but i think i've pretty much covered everything I had to say as of right now. Any further issues with breaking new stuff can be approached with the similar method of applying mathematical or other principles to the "Logical Sandbox" of penspinning, I see it as common sense, since this just took a minute or two to think up while arguing notation with @shoeman6. EDIT- Shoeman brought up this vid freeman did, with previous notation issues as to whether it is rev or normal: Well, I propose the simple and intuitive rule that, in the case of a compound slot (both hands involved), the "normal" and "reverse" trick modifiers will relate to the directions for normal and reverse of the spinner's main hand. Sorry for the wall of text, but it literally cannot have a tl;dr!

  2. shoeman6
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 05:46:45

    I actually really like this method of 2p2h simultaneous notation, the only problem is that speed and absolute trick by trick synch is not describable but I think, with video aid this really simplifies future 2p2h notation. as opposed to tedious ' prime notation for all 2h. Edit: How could this be used in assisted tricks or tricks requiring 2 hands, such as 1p2h? Or how would this be used in conjunction with ' to make more complicated combos easier to describe? Would dual row notation still be neccesary for formal 2p2h notation or is there a way to describe trick by trick beat notation using this method as well (is it neccesary even)? <- answered in OP On the second note about P B and S, I think this is a good idea as well, already released in expanded hand notation, but using it to clarify exact paths of tricks and to rid ambiguity, as WELL as describe beginning and end behavior solves a lot of problems, especially going on to spin less tricks where position of the pen relative the body may be more important than pen relative fingers.

  3. shoeman6
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 06:29:32

    How would this replace/improve upon

  4. Iota
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 06:37:25

    Well, it replaces the concept that the main hand needs no symbol while the offhand takes that of ' (prime), as such a concept cannot work when you want to notate a part of a combo that is synchronized: [breakdown]^v means to do the combo with both hands, but with no symbol for the mainhand in the prime system, you can't notate such as it would look like only to do it with the offhand. Also, ^ and v are more clearly opposites, and easier to see/differentiate between than would be, say, ' and `.

  5. shoeman6
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 06:51:56

    Since synchronization and dual handedness is built into this system, could it be expanded to describe simultaneous hybrids? If so, how so? [Hybrids which involve 2 tricks at the same time in different hands] Would this simply be set by the standard ~ hybridization aka r=rx ~ ry as opposed to r=rx + ry. If this was the case we could expand ~> and >~ as well which would also help us in having a method of describing simultaneous hybrids/tricks. For example, we could use the r=rx + ry method to describe simultaneous tricks on the main hand only, allowing x to be trick 1 and y to be trick 2 and ~ hybridization inbetween, both symbolically represented as main hand ^ to represent these special case scenarios. By relating synchronization, hybridization and handedness in this way you allow for the greater modification involved in higher spinning. e.g of tricks that could be described using this form of notation. [video=youtube;YT502ciA8Ps]![/video] [video=youtube;0OWV9fvfWV0][/video] r=rx + ry would help with synchronized notation, 2p2h 1p2h and 1p1h.

  6. Iota
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 07:00:36

    Maybe, though I didn't really follow all of what you're getting at. Why not just use the & symbol to notate the simultaneity (since + is taken for the pure asynchronous 2p2h where you need to do it like adding vectors)? E.g., it'd simply be (the first trick in that vid) this: Halftap&Trianglepass (T1)^1v

  7. shoeman6
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 07:01:34

    @Iota because by using components you are able to identify and describe each of the simultaneous tricks individually and call it 1 trick or 1 combo, without having to be vague about how the trick is preformed exactly. It allows you to break down a hybridized trick into each part and identify which part is doing what, and that combined at the same time, are = to r the trick being preformed.

  8. Iota
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 07:08:37

    oh @shoeman6 i gotcha, true. it becomes one vector trick made of 2 components

  9. Zombo
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 16:26:36

    refer to FPSB's attempt they use // to say A // B => a and b executed in parallel. then if you need to break it down more fine grained, you write A [p][s ...] // B [p][s][c] > A [s ..][c] would indicate that B happens during the first part of A.

  10. Iota
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 19:17:24

    Right, but isn't that only analogous to the simultaneous section? I don't think they could do async/desync/sync'd 2p2h, or 1p2h compound/assisted transitions..

  11. hoiboy
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 22:48:10

    Call me a conservative or whatever, but I believe that we're making notation too complicated. What is the point of notation? Are we supposed to be able to recreate a combo exactly straight from the notation? Or are we supposed to use it as a "guide" to go along with the video?

  12. Iota
    Date: Thu, Sep 15 2011 22:51:05

    You use it as a guide, which is why it's this simple. You can't notate 1p2h things or anything other than sync'd 2p2h AT ALL with the current system, so you couldn't have any "guide" for a vid where a 2p2h combo is done, same combo on both hands, but the left hand starts with a twisted sonic so it's offsync by 1.5 rev's or "beats". You'd just have to hope you were good at slowmo breaking hand-by-hand, which sucks.

  13. shoeman6
    Date: Fri, Sep 16 2011 01:17:52

    I think by unifying 2 or 3 concepts that would otherwise be separate in their notation in an intuitive manner you're simplifying rather than complicating. You only need to understand the concept of ^ mainhand and v offhand and the breaking down of components to understand more complicated notation concepts such as asynch, and tricks within tricks.

  14. Iota
    Date: Fri, Sep 16 2011 19:44:28

    shoeman6 wrote: to understand more complicated notation concepts such as asynch, and tricks within tricks.