UPSB v4
Off-topic / Why is a bullet round and not sharp?
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 15:18:01
I've always wondered this since i was little. The point of a bullet is to penetrate something right?, like a person. So why don't they make a bullet sharper? As a smaller surface area with high force can penetrate more right? Just like a knife, if you stabbed someone at the same speed with a sharp knife and a blunt knife, the sharp knife will go through more right? The bullets im talking about are the ones for pistols, those are the small round rounds. Nothing like an Ak-47 or a bazooka. So do you know why a bullet is round instead of sharp?
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 15:39:59
I dunno.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 16:04:51
Bullets are pointed, the ones used by NATO forces anyway. Otherwise, they're not pointed because you want the bullet to expand inside the victim to do the most damage possible, hence hollow point and soft point bullets
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 16:37:34
At such high speeds, it doesn't even matter what shape the bullet is anymore. And sharp bullets seem harder to load into a magazine.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 16:50:28
http://i.imgur.com/S8MG4.jpg
Some of them are quite sharp. Some of them are not sharp because their purpose is not to slice through cleanly but to create a large impact on the surface it's hitting. -
Date: Tue, May 3 2011 17:13:24
Aerodynamics and all that stuff. The bullet spins when its shot from the gun. And the gun barrel has rivets to keep the bullet on a straight path as it spins through the air. I saw it on Mythbusters. XD
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 17:47:09
Koza wrote: Aerodynamics and all that stuff. The bullet spins when its shot from the gun. And the gun barrel has rivets to keep the bullet on a straight path as it spins through the air. I saw it on Mythbusters. XD
i see, so its round so that it can sort of slice through the air? and a sharp bullet cant slice through the air as good? -
Date: Tue, May 3 2011 18:17:20
if its too sharp its would not travel in a straight line
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 18:41:18
Zombo wrote: if its too sharp its would not travel in a straight line
Isn't that why the barrel imparts rotation on the bullet? -
Date: Tue, May 3 2011 18:49:49
Rotation on the bullet also makes it travel faster.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 20:34:07
the sharp ones tend to deform on impact causing a more serious injury. The round ones are less deadly to my knowledge.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 20:48:02
isnt it the other way around? I thought the rounder the more damage and I think their round because unless you were firing a mini gun or an uzi it wouldnt do much damage specially it it hits something in its path like glass or a wall before hitting its target
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 20:50:10
If it's too sharp, it'll just pierce through and go straight through like a clean hole. Other bullets like pistols flatten out and expand on impact.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 21:15:14
I think they do less damge. If it was sharp it would go right through thus, making the victim die faster. If it is round it would flatten and get stcuk, causing less damge.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 22:21:36
if they were sharp there'd be less impact, itd take longer for the bullet to stop and any energy drawn from it will be spaced out... we (the shooter, not the shot) want the bullet to penetrate the skin, then stop fairly quickly, this way all of the energy is exerted in the same area, damaging it more where a sharper bullet would just leave a gap, still hurt like hell but lacks the type of internal damager we want
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 22:24:01
Why do we want internal damage? in most instances that a gun would be used, incapacitated is just as good as dead. Only time this isn't true is plain murder (as in outside of war).
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 22:35:46
internal damage doesnt have to be lethal, it's just that otherwise the bullet just makes a hole... sure, damages what it hits, but the rest is untouched, can fix itself up in a week or so internal damage will heal, things like getting hit in the shoulder, causing some muscle damage... that'll heal but only really once the war is over... damaging to the same effect with a sharp bullet, ude need to hit the muscle tissue directly, not just the area
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 22:37:02
maybe its for stopping power purposes? :dunno:
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 22:43:14
Bullets are not sharp to the touch - because it would never be perfectly sharp all 360 degrees - and this would make the bullet choose an area to fly off to. Even long distance match bullets that come to a very tiny point - and could easily be made quite sharp - don't do it. It's why they have a little hollow point - to break up the wind. That - and bullets do not need to be sharp. They simply drill through things. Consider the standard AR-15 rifle 1:9 twist barrel - the bullet rotates one time for every 9 inches of barrel. That is 12/9= 1.33 X 3100 feet per second = bullet rotating 4133 rps or 248,000rpm! That is easily a thousand times faster than any drill you have used.
No idea on the accuracy but makes sense -
Date: Tue, May 3 2011 22:51:29
I tried looking it up on google but the people there were having the same arguements but with more advanced terms o-o But apparently the shape of the bullets do not affect it that much. It does have some effect but the metal the bullet is made of can change how it damages a target or something. But generally the sharp bullets are more for piercing through things and round bullets do more damage to living things. Edit: and I think shoeman found the same site I was on xD
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 23:22:50
Its round so it baloons out inside the target. Round bullets are usually hollow points, which do what was mentioned above. Besides, at that high of speed, it doesnt matter what shape it is. Bullets dont penetrate like a knife, they plow into whatever they hit. Some are sharp for better penetration though. If the bullet is sharp, it will go straight through the target and wouldnt cause much internal damage. If its flat, it will rip apart their insides, which to the shooter is a very good thing. @strat1227: No, dead is not as good as incapacitated. Lets say the your country was trying to kill a high profile crime lord. Your country desides to snipe him. If I shoot him, I want him dead, because at a far range, I might not be able to land another shot on him. If my bullet goes straight through him, he will not always die. He can rest up, and will survive if it doesnt hit anything major. If the bullet expands and turns his insides to jelly, he will easily be dead.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 23:30:08
lol right that's assassination or murder, im talking about general war-conflicts.
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Date: Tue, May 3 2011 23:53:06
even more important. You want to be able to drop your target quickly, before he can drop you. If you shoot him and he doesnt die right away, he could kill you or one of your buddies.
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Date: Wed, May 4 2011 00:01:58
MickChickenn wrote: even more important. You want to be able to drop your target quickly, before he can drop you. If you shoot him and he doesnt die right away, he could kill you or one of your buddies.
Like you can't just fire 2 bullets in rapid succession. -
Date: Wed, May 4 2011 01:45:34
MickChickenn wrote: Its round so it baloons out inside the target. [B]1. Round bullets are usually hollow points[/B], which do what was mentioned above. Besides, at that high of speed, it doesnt matter what shape it is. Bullets dont penetrate like a knife, they plow into whatever they hit. Some are sharp for better penetration though. [B]2. If the bullet is sharp, it will go straight through the target and wouldnt cause much internal damage.[/B] If its flat, it will rip apart their insides, which to the shooter is a very good thing. @strat1227: No, dead is not as good as incapacitated. Lets say the your country was trying to kill a high profile crime lord. Your country desides to snipe him. If I shoot him, I want him dead, because at a far range, I might not be able to land another shot on him. 3.[B]If my bullet goes straight through him, he will not always die. He can rest up, and will survive if it doesnt hit anything major. If the bullet expands and turns his insides to jelly, he will easily be dead.[/B]
1. Not true at all. In fact by a certain convention, hollow points are banned from use in combat since they are considered inhumane. The main exceptions that they are used for are when extra precision is needed. 2. This actually has a lot less to do with the flat/sharp nature of the bullet as much as the the overall design (materials, propellent, calibre). Have a look at two very common rifle calibres, the 7.62x39 used in the famed AK-47 and the 5.56x45 which the AR-15 (M16) uses.
Both are what you would call "sharp". However at medium/long ranges, the 7.62 often does not fragment whereas the 5.56 does. This can be greatly attributed to the (distribution of) mass, composition, and speed of both rounds. Shape plays a factor here, but when you notice that they're roughly the same shape, it's seems like that is a lesser cause.
3. The problem is that the ranges that snipers operate at, air resistance and bullet drop become major factors. This leads to the necessity of using rounds with great penetrating power, not just for the target, but the air itself as well. Snipers are usually trained to aim for very fatal areas, such as the neck, head, and heart. Hitting these areas or even very close to them often spells death.
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Date: Wed, May 4 2011 01:57:13
Tkal wrote: 1. Not true at all. In fact by a certain convention, hollow points are banned from use in combat since they are considered inhumane. The main exceptions that they are used for are when extra precision is needed. 2. This actually has a lot less to do with the flat/sharp nature of the bullet as much as the the overall design (materials, propellent, calibre). Have a look at two very common rifle calibres, the 7.62x39 used in the famed AK-47 and the 5.56x45 which the AR-15 (M16) uses. http://ljforestier.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/7.62x51-vs-5.56x45-2-267x300.jpg Both are what you would call "sharp". However at medium/long ranges, the 7.62 often does not fragment whereas the 5.56 does. This can be greatly attributed to the (distribution of) mass, composition, and speed of both rounds. Shape plays a factor here, but when you notice that they're roughly the same shape, it's seems like that is a lesser cause. 3. The problem is that the ranges that snipers operate at, air resistance and bullet drop become major factors. This leads to the necessity of using rounds with great penetrating power, not just for the target, but the air itself as well. Snipers are usually trained to aim for very fatal areas, such as the neck, head, and heart. Hitting these areas or even very close to them often spells death.
^this guy knows his stuff -
Date: Wed, May 4 2011 02:58:42
Some bullets have rounded tips because they are descendants of the Minié ball. Why did the Minié ball have a rounded tip? Read a fucking book about it. Actually, I may be way off, but that's what I think I remember from years of watching the Military Channel.
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Date: Wed, May 4 2011 03:39:51
strat1227 wrote: Why do we want internal damage? in most instances that a gun would be used, incapacitated is just as good as dead. Only time this isn't true is plain murder (as in outside of war).
injured is better then dead. They throw dead people into graves; injured people need medical attention which costs more for your enemy. -
Date: Wed, May 4 2011 04:10:48
Loanshark wrote: Like you can't just fire 2 bullets in rapid succession.
easier said then done. Life isnt Call of Duty where you hit every bullet you fire. In real life, not all people run around in the open. Sometimes, you can barely hit him. So no, you cant always hit two in a row. @Tkal I know about the geneva convention, but I was talking about just normal non war guns at that point. I know hollow points are inhumane, but they serve to prove my point. By the way, you do know what you are talking about. You seem to know a lot about guns. However, comparing the 7.62x39 and the 5.56x45 is just not fair. They are two very different bullets fired from two somewhat different guns. The 7.62 is conisdered a large caliber bullet. while the 5.56 is considered small. A really good bullet you could use to prove your point is the .38 special and the .357 magnum round. They are almost the same bullet, but with very different stopping power. Yes, I know that the ripping has to do with the rotations and muzzle velocity, but the shape of the bullet and the aerodynamics of the round also help. To your third point, they often die because of the huge caliber of the sniper bullet and the high muzzle velocity. If you hit someone in the arm with a R700 or a M40A3, you will probably tear their arm off. Not all because of the bullet, but because of the power of the bullet. Yes, those hits help, but are not the deciding factor of the kill. If the bullet doesnt hit anything vital, it will not always kill. Im talking if something freak happend and you missed hitting a vital oragan. If you somehow managed to screw up your shot, you have a better chance of causing permanent damage with a better bullet. -
Date: Wed, May 4 2011 07:22:33
pew pew pew
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Date: Wed, May 4 2011 19:33:43
Zombo wrote: if its too sharp its would not travel in a straight line
ahh, i see -
Date: Thu, May 5 2011 00:41:55
Awesome wrote: injured is better then dead. They throw dead people into graves; injured people need medical attention which costs more for your enemy.
lmao. this is quite facetious. that kinda makes sense... but graves = land. land = money. no? -
Date: Thu, May 5 2011 02:22:21
SJ wrote: lmao. this is quite facetious. that kinda makes sense... but graves = land. land = money. no?
Well as put in a novel I once read, "It takes only one man to bury another, but two to carry him away." Overall the point is a bit of a weak one and there are lot of ways to could senselessly argue it. Land may cost money, but so does constant medical treatment, rehabilitation, and then veteran payouts. It's all really dependent on the setting and the combatants. I'd say the point was really only valid during WWI (and maybe prior to then) when it was largely static warfare in grueling conditions, often leaving dead soldiers without a proper burial and man power on the front lines being truly strained. -
Date: Thu, May 5 2011 02:34:24
this thread is really going deep
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Date: Thu, May 5 2011 03:21:21
SWAT teams and to a lesser extent the military doesn't like "sharper" (armor piercing) rounds b/c of collateral damage i.e. you shoot at a guy in an apartment building and it goes through the wall and kill his neighbor's baby in the crib. Plus its a manufacturing issue, if you're pouring a liquid molten metal into a shape its easier to make a round one. the original bullets were made in "shot towers" a really tall thing where they drop a liquid molten lead ball at the top, it cools at it falls and hits the ground as a solid ball.
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Date: Sun, May 8 2011 16:32:43
SJ wrote: lmao. this is quite facetious. that kinda makes sense... but graves = land. land = money. no?
medical costs >>> land used A hospital bed is much more valuable space then any old plot of land -
Date: Sun, May 8 2011 16:47:08
Then again, if they are only injured you still possibly have one more guy shooting back, or someone able to bear more children... But since the population is pretty dependent on the women, you'd be better off killing/stealing all the woman away...
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Date: Thu, May 12 2011 10:04:05
Pirates used round bullets and killed many people meaning it don`t matter what the shape is a long as its really fast
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Date: Fri, May 13 2011 00:55:34
They also missed a lot.
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Date: Fri, May 13 2011 01:44:20
The trajectory of its impact is solely based on its velocity's acceleration from teh barrel, thus resulting in the flatness of the bullet's tip. We can now concur that the abdominal area does not affect its speed nor shape, but solely for asthetics. Ectoplasmic reticulum.
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Date: Fri, May 13 2011 01:45:32
I don't think they intend bullets to penetrate cleanly. The initial impact of a gunshot is not that destructive, but when the bullet enters the body it richochets and that is where the majority of the damage comes from.