UPSB v4
General Discussion / Pen Spinner Rankings?
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 15:35:41
hmm, I wondering if there is world's top 100 pen spinners like ATP Rankings on Tennis players. :hmm: who is the number one, or in which position are you now? just imagine but I don't know if that is possible. what do you think? is there a way to judge pen spinner rankings?
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 15:39:55
that would be too much work think about it there wasnt 100 spinners in the world tournament
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 15:50:05
Everyone's opinion about penspinners differ, so it's hard to say for sure :)
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 15:53:11
DrakeOhMeteor007 wrote: that would be too much work think about it there wasnt 100 spinners in the world tournament
there is a possibility of participants will reach 100 for next PSWT because in each tournament participant is always increasing. but should it be assessed from the WT spinners, while some great spinner does not participate? -
Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 15:54:42
true but it still requires a lot of time and work to assess the spinners and update the rankings in a specific time frame
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 16:03:59
indeed, oh I wish there is an association which could assess a pen spinner rangkings because I want to write an article about that. Maybe personal opinion is the only answer. :p
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 16:10:38
+1 Gland, I would like to see a ranking too based on his winning and losing streak, and maybe in UPSB too ;).
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 17:06:17
A ranking system like this is pretty much impossible seeing as penspinning is an art and not a sport. There's never a clear winner in any battle, one could always argue from a different stand point.
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 18:00:59
and wat about those spinners that quit?
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 18:39:26
There could effectively be tiers of spinners however, split into different styles and such. So you could have like masters and stuff a have a list of those, maybe like an international spinners hall of fame... as for specific rankings, the ladder, but otherwise you can't really pin down ranks (without a lot of controversy), and it really doesn't reflect the spinning community.
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 19:36:39
it would be awsome to see. but to make that happen, there has to be a points score for every round in the WT and WC. and besides that, in ladder battles and stuff we have to make also something with points! I'd love to see that ranking though.
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Date: Mon, Apr 18 2011 22:48:05
the people that are in TOPS are usually pretty up-there in that certain category. If you are going to do penspinning as a whole for rankings, no one is going to be better than everyone else at every part of penspinning.
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 00:32:33
Imo, it's a pretty bad idea considering that everybody's definition of good spinning is different. All I can imagine is drama and controversy.
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 00:42:48
i wish that in the future pen spinning can get yu money
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 01:01:59
Maybe the public could vote on it every week/2 weeks/ month, etc. For spinners to be on the voting list, it would update every week/2 weeks/month. People could submit their suggestions, and if that spinner that got voted for got voted for 10 times, then he/she will get on the list. Like other people said, their could/should be separate categories, and maybe overall best spinner. I would like to see this. :)
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 04:12:11
We could use tiers much more effectively, there would have to be like an international committee though. @shoeman6
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 09:29:59
Good idea but way too subjective to grade every single spinner. Plus PS is an art form. When some one comes up with the an accurate list of the top 100 artist of all time then we can take on this project The closest way to determine the best spinner is to let everyone battle it out. However if you are in the WT, it does not mean you are the top 100 spinners because of the system of getting the spinners for the WT isn't accurately choosing the top 100 spinners
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 09:37:09
tiers are possible, but no matter how spinners are ranked, there will always be people near the 'borderline' of ranks/groups etc...
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 12:31:40
I don't see how this could be implemented. You can't get assign scores to every spinner, and whoever gets the highest is the best, because between each spinner, you are comparing different aspects of the problem and will end up with a lot of A > B > C > D > A (see : Efron's Dice Paradox). It's hard to do it in a tennis/chess way because determining who wins a specific matchup is not simple and straightforward. That's a problem because in order for the ranking algorithms to be in any way accurate, you need TONS of data (game stats), probably more than is practical to do. (Double the size of WT Round 1, 52 times a year? Right...). And with tons of data comes redundancy because a large factor is originality, and there's only so much spinners can do before judges (which also come in limited supply) starts seeing patterns and become bored, biasing the rankings. Plus, it's plain dumb to do this with art. Every person know who are the best, and they all have their own idea of who is THE best. Because this is not binary (either win or lose like in most sports/games), the best you can do is tiers, for the difference between people in a given tier is too blurry to be sorted.
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Date: Tue, Apr 19 2011 20:37:22
Advecticity wrote: I don't see how this could be implemented. You can't get assign scores to every spinner, and whoever gets the highest is the best, because between each spinner, you are comparing different aspects of the problem and will end up with a lot of A > B > C > D > A (see : Efron's Dice Paradox). It's hard to do it in a tennis/chess way because determining who wins a specific matchup is not simple and straightforward. That's a problem because in order for the ranking algorithms to be in any way accurate, you need TONS of data (game stats), probably more than is practical to do. (Double the size of WT Round 1, 52 times a year? Right...). And with tons of data comes redundancy because a large factor is originality, and there's only so much spinners can do before judges (which also come in limited supply) starts seeing patterns and become bored, biasing the rankings. Plus, it's plain dumb to do this with art. Every person know who are the best, and they all have their own idea of who is THE best. Because this is not binary (either win or lose like in most sports/games), the best you can do is tiers, for the difference between people in a given tier is too blurry to be sorted.
for sure. i think Gildor deserved to go much further than round 1 honestly i would have been satisfied if he at least got to r2/3. Despite this im sure very few share my opinion. he's my source of inspiration now ehe and as others have said this isnt JEB we dont need/have the ability to rank everyone objectively, and it will ruin the 'chill' mood of the board as far as ps goes -
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 01:09:42
JEB ranks pen spinners? Wut? If anything, I would think they are the least likely to rank pen spinners because barely any battles go on over there...
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Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 01:36:44
They don't... Well not as far as I see
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Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 02:57:43
this is like trying to rank the top 100 singers, dancers, instrument players, or artists. they're all fine arts, they normally don't get ranked.
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Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 10:13:15
personal preference....but for me peem/supawit top 1
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Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 13:37:46
there should be 2 different lists one list that uses tournament results to rank spinners one that gathers opinions from different spinners and gathers them all together
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Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 13:59:01
IMO it's difficult because pen spinning doesn't really have the points to be measured. It doesn't have anything that can be measured objectively and compared. It might be different if we give points to tricks though, e.g. power tricks = 10 points, thumbaround = 2, sonic = 2. maybe something like that.
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Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 22:47:15
smudgey wrote: there should be 2 different lists one list that uses tournament results to rank spinners one that gathers opinions from different spinners and gathers them all together
this is a nice idea the spinner's choice rankings, just have someone to gather up votes by people, only choose a certain amount of spinners, and only vote once but much easier said than done, wasn't the list of wt participants from each board ordered in who was thought to be strongest? i dunno, too hard to do this -
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2011 22:52:29
miyat wrote: but much easier said than done, wasn't the list of wt participants from each board ordered in who was thought to be strongest?
that's true, they were ranked, and some of the rankings were not that 'agreeable' (THPSC's) , and the outcomes of some matches in WT clearly showed the boards' rankings of their spinners to be very inaccurate (e.g. Raeik as 8th on FPSB team when he made it through to R3, Sponge did best out of GPC team but wasn't ranked as their no. 1 or 2 iirc) still, the seeding system worked pretty well in preventing the strongest opponents from knocking each other out to early, so it could work in 'normal' use, just that it's probably too much work for any one person is willing to do =\ -
Date: Thu, Apr 21 2011 01:22:22
so have i entered the thread at a point where we've decided that pen spinning is more of an art than a sport, thus ranking is hard? I seem to recall this thread being posted several time in the past, so it's hard to keep track. But ok, past that point? I'll continue then I apologize for my sarcastic introduction, but i do have a serious suggestion Tornaments are great fun in pen spinning, there are a lot of hype surrounding them, but i see collabs to be a much better representation of pen spinning. A variety of styles are showcased, and it is moreso judged for it's aesthetic appeal than technical skill than a battle video. I think more hype should be given to collab videos, only the annual official board videos seem to be anticipated, and probably only JapEn collab anticipated religiously. What i'm leading up to is a way to both not rank as such, but to collect the best of pen spinning, and to possibly increase the amount of great collabs, and regularly great collabs (think minovate, spsl/saz'ect) Pen spinning, not a sport, rather an art. So how are artistic skill measured/ranked? You could go into ice skating/gymnastics/sync swimming, but they still use a criteria of techinical difficulty/execution etc, much like battle pen spinning. But now think about music or movies, and the Grammys or the Oscars. A huge night, very prestigious, and celebrates the best in the industry for that year. I think pen spinning could benefit from this. Much like the Grammys and their awards for each genre of music, pen spinning could give out an award for each style, for both spinner *and* collab. Therefore, the best power spinner award could go to supawit in thpsc 2nd, but the best powerspinning collab is TOPS 21 - powerspinning. The definition for the individual power spinning award is simple, if the spinner uses a bunch of these tricks x,y,z and have this sort of "feel" it should be concidered. And for collab, a "80% of the clips should be power spinning" rule could be used. Then, concidering all of those styles and smaller awards, then they can nominate "best pen spinning combo" and "best collab" awards. True, this may not give a ranking of the best spinners, but seeing as many spinners will submit many combos for different collabs, "best spinning" award will be quite accurate. As a tack on, best editing, and best special effects can also be awards. (this is so i bring up my beef about editing =/= sfx, which pen spinning has seemed to merge into one) Granted, this "award ceremony" will take a lot of work to finalise. A commitee of judges from each board is needed, possibly noting down good collabs/combos in collabs throughout the year, making a shortlist for each catergory 2 months before the awards, opening up a public suggestion to get some collabs/combos that the committeee could have missed. Then the commitee reducing the shortlist to the nominees, then maybe the commitee breaking up into smaller, more specific-to-a-style groups to discuss each catergory. Yes, it is a big ask, *but*, it will showcase the best spinning, and it will, if done right, encourage better collabs, and for ongoing collabs such as TOPS, give it more motivation to keep going. for those who have managed to stomach my wall of text, thank you for [B]tl;dr - oscars for pen spinning?[/B]