UPSB v4
Tricks & Combos / [topic][1.1] Simultaneous Tricks
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Date: Fri, Jun 25 2010 05:58:03
Original thread here: http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=25826 Copied form UPSBv3: The idea here is to execute 2 tricks, or more, with one only pen (1P1H or 1P2H), and at the same time. This has nothing to do with hybrids, but maybe some simultaneous tricks can be Assisted Spinning (and/or vice-versa). You can see some examples in this video: [video=youtube;0OWV9fvfWV0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OWV9fvfWV0[/video] [video=youtube;YT502ciA8Ps]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT502ciA8Ps[/video] Use this thread to discuss and explore on simultaneous tricks
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Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 22:14:31
I'm sorry for being inactive in the RD this lot of time. I'll work on an article explaining simultaneous tricks in the next weeks, so all the information we can gather can be useful.
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 01:32:05
I think these can just be covered by the hybrid notation?
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 01:37:30
what is "hybrid notation"?
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 01:40:32
strat1227 wrote: what is "hybrid notation"?
Surely hybrid and interrupted trick are the same thing? I can't see how you can interrupt a trick without creating a hybrid? -
Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 01:43:37
ok i thought you meant just saying "trick1/trick2 hybrid" because it makes no sense to use the interrupted notation for this interrupted notation only works for linear/consecutive tricks, not simultaneous ... it very obviously is "trick1~>trick2" which means trick 1 is before trick 2, there's no way in interrupted notation to say they're happening at the same time
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 01:54:55
strat1227 wrote: ok i thought you meant just saying "trick1/trick2 hybrid" because it makes no sense to use the interrupted notation for this interrupted notation only works for linear/consecutive tricks, not simultaneous ... it very obviously is "trick1~>trick2" which means trick 1 is before trick 2, there's no way in interrupted notation to say they're happening at the same time
What I mean is, instead of a seperate topic called 'simultanuous tricks', we should be looking towards expansion of the hybrid (interrupted trick) notation to make allowance for tricks at the same time. -
Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 02:06:56
because it's a new concept, yes we can resolve it within the interrupted notation if that's what we decide is best but i think it needs a new topic because it's a new concept anyway unless you have any suggestions then this convo is pretty pointless
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 02:21:37
My suggestion is you can bracket something and put a slash - [Triangle Pass/Halftaps] and then this represents those tricks are going down at the same time. For example: Thumbaround -> [Triangle Pass/Halftaps] -> Fingerpass Reverse
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 02:29:35
lol that's in no way related to the current interrupted notation also you need a way to indicate which trick is being done by which hand
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 16:24:40
How about RH and LH for right hand and left hand respectively? Twisted Sonic 23-12 ~ Shadow Normal -> Shadow 12-12 -> (RH Triangle Pass/LH Halftaps) -> Thumbaround -> Fingerless Thumbaround. Seems pretty clear. I actually prefer the curvy brackets because you can already use the square ones in interrupted trick notation.
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 16:26:32
@Freeman thoughts?
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 19:13:55
I don't see what the hand indication solves. Wouldn't be clear with the fingerslot used and the video? Also I think brackets are useful in some cases, but I thought we already agreed on using the + sign, there is no need to put a slash if we already found an understandable symbol. Using informal notation, and in general, we can describe the second trick in my video as Tipped Charge + Seasick. If we want to notate the slot, we could use brackets as this: [Tipped Charge + Seasick] TF > FL Ext TA TF-12 > [Tipped Charge + Seasick] 12 > ... Also I dont think we could notate my first trick as "(RH Triangle Pass/LH Halftaps)" because all three fingers are involved in both tricks. I think it's pretty clear with Triangle Pass T11' + Halftap T1-T1 [p 1'].
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 19:19:33
breakdowns have to be independent of video, if i give you a breakdown without a video you should know what i'm doing, that's why we need hand indication what you're saying is good you just need to add hand-indications
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Date: Thu, Feb 10 2011 20:21:44
Triangle Pass T11' + Halftap T1-T1 [p 1']
what you're saying is good you just need to add hand-indications
I think the handedness modifier solves that, as I used it. But it's difficult to know how the trick is performed because of finger positioning and no notation for it. -
Date: Tue, May 17 2011 13:04:26
I have finished the article. Should I add something else before making it public? Here it is: [B][SIZE="4"]Simultaneous Tricks[/SIZE][/B] When talking about simultaneous tricks, we refer to 2 or more tricks executed at the same time and with the same only pen. Regular hybrids have a temporal definition: they are a sequence of parts of tricks. Simultaneous tricks are technically hybrids, but there’s a temporal difference: they use parts of tricks together at the same time. Simultaneous tricks include a combination of 2+ tricks done with the same hand (1p1h), assisted spinning (1p2h) and dual spinning (2p1h), where each pen spins on a different way, though there’s not a notation system for describing use of multiple pens. There are two categories: orthogonal tricks, where trick rotations work on different axis and are compatible with each other, and parallel tricks, where the rotation is the same and can be combined to reinforce the spin. [B]Notation[/B] The + sign between two tricks indicates that they are both done at the same time. Example: ThumbIndexspin T1 + Basketball Spin 1' Brackets may be useful if both tricks are done in the same fingerslot. Example: [Tipped Charge + Seasick] TF Also, if the simultaneous trick is done in a continuous way, brackets should be used. Example: Cont [Shadow Still 12 + Index'around] [B]Formal notation[/B] A trick as we know works with the sequence push-spin-catch. Simultaneous tricks can work at any of these phases. We can have simultaneous pushes, spins or catches, so then we are forced to write [p], [s] and [c]. At the spin level, you can do spin tricks that spin on top of multiple fingers or parts of the hand. A Shadow, for example, can have simultaneous spins. At the catch level, extra fingers that are not required to do the normal catch can be used for obtaining poses with fingers or using the morphing concept. An example is making a Spider Spin catch while catching the pen in the palm. These are simultaneous catches. At the push level, it usually means having an extra finger helping with the push that is probably not needed. Example: Pass Reverse 23-12 + Thumbaround [p] ~ Pass Reverse 23-12. An extra thumb finger is used to push the pen in the Pass, but it’s not necessary. These are simultaneous pushes. This notation helps to understand how a simultaneous trick work when reading its breakdown, but it's difficult to know how it is exactly performed because of finger positioning and no notation for it. [B]Video examples[/B] You can see some examples in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OWV9fvfWV0 Note: The spinner in the video is left-handed. Informal notation: 1- Cont [Triangle Pass Reverse* T11' + Halftap T1-T1] 2- [Seasick + Tipped Charge] TF 3- Spider Spin + Thumb'Index'Spin Reverse *The 1p2h trick spin direction convention determines that for tricks that require use of fingers from both hands, its spin direction is taken from the perspective of the right hand. In the example, the Triangle Pass is Normal for the left hand (use of T1), but Reverse for the right one (use of 1'). Following the convention, the trick is Reverse. The first example corresponds to the parallel trick category, and the second to the orthogonal one. The third is a combination of different spins. Formal notation 1- Cont [Triangle Pass T11' + Halftap 12-12] [p] ~ Halftap 12-12 [s][c] 2- Tipped Charge TF [p][s] + Seasick TF ~ Tipped Charge TF [c] 3- Spider Spin 23 [s] + Thumb'Index'Spin Reverse T'1' [s] There’s no push on the spins because is generated by the previous trick. [B]Redefinition of old tricks[/B] Some 1p2h tricks can be breakdowned with the simultaneous trick notation. For example the Two Finger Twirl and the Helix: Cont Two Finger Twirl 11' = Cont [Indexaround 1 + Index'around 1'] Helix 11' = Basketball Spin Rev 1 + Basketball Spin Rev 1' [B]Other videos[/B] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT502ciA8Ps
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Date: Tue, May 17 2011 16:52:05
Looks good to me :thumb:
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Date: Wed, May 18 2011 08:49:36
Great job, very incisive.
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Date: Wed, May 18 2011 21:02:46
Ok, I'm going to create the article on the wiki and post it publicly tomorrow. EDIT: Created: http://forum.upsb.info/showthread.php?t=63&p=96182#post96182 http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Simultaneous_Tricks
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Date: Thu, Jul 28 2011 11:43:14
Could we describe a Triangle Pass using simultaneous notation? Triangle Pass T12 = [Pass Rev 12-T1 ~ Pass Rev T2-12] + Basketball Spin T12 Cont Triangle Pass T12 x2 = [Pass Rev 12-T1 ~ Pass Rev T2-12 ~ Pass Rev 12-T1 ~ Pass Rev T2-12] + Basketball Spin T12 The same for the Flush Sonic: Flush Sonic = [Sonic 23-34 + Inverse Sonic 23-12] ~> Pass 14-23
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Date: Sat, Jul 30 2011 03:00:30
about the TP thing. I actually just recorded a combo with a triangle pass + basketball spin simultaneous trick in it. The TP naming looks wrong I always thought that tps never consisted of basketball spin. and if there were one, it would only be a 0.3333 revolution on each finger with each pass. Also I think the pass naming is wrong . The pass rev 12-T1 goes on the other side of the index compared to the tp pass. I think its more of a inverse tipped sonic T1-T2 ~ pass rev T2-12