UPSB v4
Philosophy / What is Pen Spinning?
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Date: Thu, Jun 24 2010 11:25:29
In V3, zombo released a brilliant article discussing many facets of pen spinning and what it is. You can read it here -> http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Discourse_on_the_metaphysics_of_Pen_Spinning What [B]is[/B] "Pen Spinning"? http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=24116 <- previous thread.
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Date: Tue, Jun 29 2010 18:40:32
After reading that artical, i dont even know anymore
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Date: Mon, Jul 5 2010 12:16:41
Haha, that's true, it brings up some very relevant questions though, for instance what a pen is. A lot of it comes down to labels, and words I think though.
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Date: Thu, Nov 18 2010 01:29:06
great article zombo. I've never heard that exact definition of pen spinning before, but i really disagree with it. I've always thought pen spinning was as simple as, manipulating a pen/mod with hands, with the exception of other body parts and environment. Im sure someone can poke holes in my definition but thats what i've always seen ps'ing as. Adding the "aesthetically pleasing" seems so ridiculous to me.
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Date: Thu, Nov 18 2010 01:46:49
TEK wrote: great article zombo. I've never heard that exact definition of pen spinning before, but i really disagree with it. I've always thought pen spinning was as simple as, manipulating a pen/mod with hands, with the exception of other body parts and environment. Im sure someone can poke holes in my definition but thats what i've always seen ps'ing as. Adding the "aesthetically pleasing" seems so ridiculous to me.
@TEK if you don't add aesthetically pleasing, then you have to concede the fact that writing is pen spinning. and not many people would defend that kind of point of view. writing is manipulating a pen with a hand, fits exactly your description. fact is, when you're pen spinning, your intention is to do something cool. that's what separates it from writing, where the intention is to produce a written document. I believe my definition of pen spinning is as simple as possible. In other words, it is the most fundamental definition, you can't reduce it more than that. -
Date: Fri, Nov 19 2010 08:19:39
Zombo wrote: @TEK if you don't add aesthetically pleasing, then you have to concede the fact that writing is pen spinning. and not many people would defend that kind of point of view. writing is manipulating a pen with a hand, fits exactly your description. fact is, when you're pen spinning, your intention is to do something cool. that's what separates it from writing, where the intention is to produce a written document. I believe my definition of pen spinning is as simple as possible. In other words, it is the most fundamental definition, you can't reduce it more than that.
Ah i see what you mean now. Is there a reason why that definition is so simplified though? It seems so overly simplified that it needs so much more explanation. What if a non-spinner asked you what is pen spinning and you give them that definition. Then they show you a video and say..."they aren't using a pen". At this point, you need to give them the full explanation about the simplification of language and so on. To fix my definition by adding intension, i get this... Pen spinning is the intensional manipulation of primarily pen mods with the exception of other objects, in primarily the hand(s), with the exception of other body parts and surroundings. When i mean primarily pen mods, im taking that from what the majority of pen spinners use now'n days. (obviously people use pens, pencils, markers etc) I think the definition works well because the manipulation of the pen is the intension. But, it does not limit pen spinning and says that writing is not considered pen spinning. If the person is writing but their intension is pen spinning, than they are pen spinning (i would say). I'm just trying to keep that option open because one day or their is probably someone now that has made a video where they do the traditional pen spinning tricks while adding a "writing" like trick in the combo. I know my definition isn't perfect. I feel like there is more to pen spinning than just the object we're spinning. One can say, what if i thumb around a book, is that considered pen spinning? (this would be so because i added "with the exception of other objects" in my definition). But to thumb around a book so too far away from normal pen spinning. I think there should be something like..."commonly established pen spinning tricks" somewhere.. or MAYBE...pen spinning is not about what we spin...but the tricks themselves...this is getting crazy = = -
Date: Fri, Nov 19 2010 15:59:13
the definition that I write: "the artistic manipulation of a pen in an aesthetically pleasing fashion" is a very concise definition. if you needed to resume PS in a few words, this is it. but if you need more details, that's when you need to explain each element in more details. this is what the article is about. the main 3 elements are: what is a pen? what is a manipulation? what is aesthetic? like you point out, for pen spinners, mods are considered pens as well. this is part of our definition of pens. furthermore, we also consider pencils and markers as "pens". for manipulation, it is concerned with what kind of things we can do with the pen. usually we manipulate it with the hands in PS, but that can overlap with other disciplines. like say if you're juggling pens, are you pen spinning or are you juggling? you're in fact doing: 1. manipulation 2. of pens 3. in an aesthetically pleasing fashion. but some people might say this is just juggling, not pen spinning. for aesthetics, which is what you call intention, in what way can your pen spinning be cool? normally we think that the motion of the pen looks cool, this is the "product" we want to show. but what if that product was combined with writing, like you said. this is more in the realm of "calligraphy", where the characters produced are beautiful, but also the stroke of the pen while drawing is also beautiful. in this case you're doing: 1. manipulation 2. of a pen 3. in an aesthetically pleasing fashion, where the motion of the pen is beautiful, and the product on paper is beautiful. so when you use this very basic definition, you can expand PS a lot and go into disciplines that ppl never tried yet, like incorporating juggling with PS, calligraphy with PS or "pen tapping".
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 16:43:39
[quote=Zombo]I believe my definition of pen spinning is as simple as possible. In other words, it is the most fundamental definition, you can't reduce it more than that.[/quote] I disagree. Your definition includes things that are not pen spinning as the manipulation we commonly refer to. You provide examples yourself: juggling pens, calligraphy, pen tapping. Writing aesthetic things (e.g. poetry) also suits your definition if we take your argument for calligraphy minus pretty strokes.
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 16:50:24
no, because each of the core elements carry their own definition. therefore you have to define what manipulation means, which can eliminate some elements also you have to define what aesthetics mean. you also have to define what a pen is the definition hides a lot of information
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 18:53:25
"the artistic manipulation of a pen in an aesthetically pleasing fashion." This could be seen as untrue for other reasons, for example, what if you spin pens purely to get better? Not for art, or for aesthetically pleasing outcomes, but purely to be the best you can be? I don't think the definition is very good.
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 19:49:01
it's possible that someone takes up pen spinning in order to improve its fingers flexibility, but those people are rare and so this benefit should be seen as a side effect rather than its main purpose.
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 19:51:15
With tournaments appearing more and more often and pen spinning's popularity increasing, there is going to be an increase in the number of people that do it purely to become as good as possible.
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 19:52:27
ok mats, i think you are confusing the what and the why. PS has a set definition, it describes what's happening. the purpose can be completely different for everybody: for fun as a hobby, for competition, finger fitness, etc.
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 19:55:47
You see, I think your definition is just plain incorrect. For example, the definition of toss juggling is the throwing and catching of n + 1 objects in a logical pattern (where n is number of hands). This covers all toss juggling, technical, aesthetic, messing about, all of it. Pen spinning should perhaps be something more like: 'Using a pen to do tricks.' This covers all of pen spinning. I can't think of any pen spinning you would be doing that would not involve doing tricks with a pen?
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 20:10:44
artistic manipulation = trick same thing
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 20:13:51
Zombo wrote: artistic manipulation = trick same thing
I don't think many people would agree with this! 'Artistic' things are supposed to be in someway creative or made to affect the emotions. I don't see a TA or a Sonic, for example and get affected emotionally, or think the person has been creative by learning a trick thousands of others can do. -
Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 20:16:29
then you have to define what a trick is most likely you will end up having to define manipulation and something extra.
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 20:25:17
'trick' being a single word, is already defined in the good old OED. In fact, any single words are already defined. We can't rewrite the dictionary!
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 20:34:42
I found this definition: "7. A difficult, dexterous, or clever act designed to amuse." writing a poem can be a difficult act (requires good knowledge of english) using a pen. the poem itself may be funny and therefore amusing. is writing a poem pen spinning?
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Date: Mon, Dec 6 2010 21:08:21
Okay, we need to add something about the pen's movement. Of course, stall tricks would have to be included too. Perhaps: 'Moving or balancing a pen in order to perform tricks.' ? Now I guess you can argue that writing is 'movement', but I am doubtful if I say to someone 'move that pen over there', they are going to go and trace a line between where the pen started and where it finishes.
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Date: Tue, Dec 7 2010 21:39:52
I think it's better if we simply refer to the set of all pen spinning tricks instead of the dictionary definition of 'trick.' The question then is what we mean by a pen spinning trick. For that we can simply say an element of the trick book (although the only trick book I'm aware of - http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=196 - is considerably outdated and redundant), or we can attempt to derive a generalized definition of an arbitrary trick, which is, I think, what Zombo's definition does indirectly.
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Date: Wed, Dec 8 2010 05:30:54
then you have decide what makes a trick part of the trick book.
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Date: Wed, Dec 8 2010 06:49:24
A better trick book here: http://upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Trick_book Using the wiki definition of a trick: "Tricks are specific, deliberate movements of the pen. Tricks are split up into three specific parts: Push, Spin and Catch. Every trick must have these three components, either quite separately (Thumbaround) or a combination of push-spin and/or spin-catch (Charge). " So writing a poem is no longer a trick - There is no push, spin and catch and the definition of ''Moving or balancing a pen in order to perform tricks.'' seems correct now?
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Date: Wed, Dec 8 2010 18:58:50
The issues with the wiki definition are stalls and hybrids. By the wiki definition, stalls are not tricks and some hybrids, which are combos of incomplete and complete tricks, are tricks. Then we'll have to concede that some combos are tricks.
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Date: Wed, Dec 8 2010 19:22:51
mats, wouldn't your definition include juggling? a juggling toss is a push (release), spin (pen rotating in the air) and catch. this fits the definition of trick.
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Date: Thu, Dec 9 2010 00:09:01
Well, would throwing a pen and catching it now constitute a pen spinning trick?
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Date: Thu, Dec 9 2010 05:21:29
well if you do it in a pattern of juggling with multiple pens, i don't think many people would it pen spinning.
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Date: Thu, Dec 9 2010 06:49:26
True, but how would you define pen spinning and include air tricks, but exclude straight juggling?
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Date: Fri, Dec 10 2010 20:47:14
wow thats deep but cool
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 01:54:13
Yeah, so the UPSB wiki hasn't even got a page explaining what pen spinning is...
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 01:55:17
http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Discourse_on_the_metaphysics_of_Pen_Spinning
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 01:57:33
shoeman6 wrote: http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=Discourse_on_the_metaphysics_of_Pen_Spinning
That's a discourse on the metaphysics of pen spinning. I'm talking about a page that actually defines pen spinning. That page you linked doesn't tell you what pen spinning is... -
Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 01:59:22
Well the page attempts to explore and suggest definitions of pen spinning while suggesting and showing how pen spinning can be an abstract thing without a single definition.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 02:03:45
It's difficult to have pen spinning competitions when pen spinning itself isn't even defined...
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 02:10:09
well definitions are complicated things... scientific communities have arguments about standards of definitions all the time, and many people will ignore them and use what is common. What is yoyoing? What is juggling? What is life? What is death? What is a planet? What is a definition? You see? and the wiki article is pretty comprehensive in trying to show the vastness of what pen spinning COULD be. Any real answer you get is going to abstract or have exceptions. I think most people [B]understand [/B] what pen spinning is, it's more of a concept or idea than a categorical word. People definition of penspinning will be different based on what you consider spinning, you for example consider your new trick pen spinning, while strat doesn't as it seems ridiculous to him, does this mean either of your definitions are correct? not necessarily, definitions and description is only useful to a point, but you can't just label something and have it stand concrete for every instance of its existence, the definition of pen spinning is broadening every day, with people like you, inventing new tricks or concepts that previous pen spinners had not thought about. In any case, if you're searching for a very general definition, it would be manipulation of objects, all manipulations are essentially the same and all related, this covers all bases, being more specific you could say it's the manipulation of pens, and then we start getting back to the wiki where it explores what these terms really mean and what/why we consider some things pen spinning as opposed to others. Of course this is fluid like I said and changes as our concepts and ideas about what pen spinning really is conforms to the new styles and tricks people come up with.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 02:20:24
shoeman6 wrote: What is juggling?
Pretty much all jugglers agree on: To keep n + 1 objects (where n is the number of hands) in the air by throwing and catching them alternately.What is life?
All living things: Require nutrition, reproduce, move, respire, are sensitive to their environment, grow and excrete waste.What is death?
The termination of life.What is a planet?
I think they have not put an exact measurement on this, but I don't know what it is.What is a definition?
A statement of the meaning of a word or phrase.You see?
Not really, no.and the wiki article is pretty comprehensive in trying to show the vastness of what pen spinning COULD be.
Yes, but that's rubbish. Who cares what it COULD be? We just want to know what it is. Just wait until someone is disqualified from the World Tournament or World Cup for their video not being pen spinning... [/QUOTE] -
Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 02:52:53
Sorry if I come off as a jerk in this but your arguments are really about semantics and seem like they're being made for the sake of disagreement.
Pretty much all jugglers agree on: To keep n + 1 objects (where n is the number of hands) in the air by throwing and catching them alternately.
What about contact juggling? I know many jugglers do not consider this true juggling, but is it? What if you juggle under water, what if you let a ball leave instead of catching it, is that not juggling? What if you use your feet, or what if you farted a ball out of your butt flipped forward did a half turn and caught it in your mouth alternating number of orfices and balls, is that not juggling? Edit: also, you said pretty much all jugglers agree upon, others might not understand, but you're defending a definition on the very basis that you laughed at me in the shoutbox for defending the basis of what a trick (or more specifically a name of a trick), is... that's hypocritical and kind of embarrassing... for you...All living things: Require nutrition, reproduce, move, respire, are sensitive to their environment, grow and excrete waste.
Well first you'll have to define what requiring nutrition reproducing moving respiration sensitivity growth and excrement are, and then explain to me whether or not someone who is brain dead is really "alive". Plus you didn't describe to me what life is, is that entertaining game I play with my friends not Life as well?The termination of life.
you failed to give me a definition for life, and you haven't defined termination. Don't give me medical terms either because a definition of a word is molded by the way people use it.I think they have not put an exact measurement on this, but I don't know what it is.
It's highly debated, does that mean we can't teach the planets in schools?A statement of the meaning of a word or phrase.
What do you mean by meaning? a word and mean a lot of different things to different people, in my thread bumming for pens, you thought bumming meant anal sex, so your statement of the meaning would have been anal sex, that didn't seem like a very correct definition to me... it had a different meaning to me.Not really, no.
That's sadYes, but that's rubbish. Who cares what it COULD be? We just want to know what it is. Just wait until someone is disqualified from the World Tournament or World Cup for their video not being pen spinning...
Unfortunately not everything can fit into your box, perhaps it's a good time to reference the wiki article about what pen spinning really is ( at least in the current mindset) before going off and boiling your pen in a pot of water and saying that you're pen spinning... -
Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:03:23
shoeman6 wrote: What about contact juggling?
Well, I just assumed you meant 'toss juggling' and gave the definition for that. That's what people generally mean by 'juggling'.Edit: also, you said pretty much all jugglers agree upon, others might not understand, but you're defending a definition on the very basis that you laughed at me in the shoutbox for defending the basis of what a trick (or more specifically a name of a trick), is... that's hypocritical and kind of embarrassing... for you...
It's just that some toss jugglers disagree with the 'alternately' bit at the end. Take that away, everyone agrees.Well first you'll have to define what requiring nutrition reproducing moving respiration sensitivity growth and excrement are, and then explain to me whether or not someone who is brain dead is really "alive". Plus you didn't describe to me what life is, is that entertaining game I play with my friends not Life as well?
Well, life is a word with more than one meaning, like many English words. I gave it's scientific meaning. You weren't clear what meaning of the word you wanted. Don't try to confuse the issue with words that have multiple definitions. In each case, I have chosen what I believe to be the most common one.you failed to give me a definition for life, and you haven't defined termination. Don't give me medical terms either because a definition of a word is molded by the way people use it.
Termination is a big word that means 'to end'. ;)It's highly debated, does that mean we can't teach the planets in schools?
So far as i know, scientists have said any object with this size/weight or more, up until a limit of x, that is orbiting a star, is a planet.What do you mean by meaning? a word and mean a lot of different things to different people, in my thread bumming for pens, you thought bumming meant anal sex, so your statement of the meaning would have been anal sex, that didn't seem like a very correct definition to me... it had a different meaning to me.
Again, you're picking words with multiple meanings. I don't know if you are doing that to be intentionally difficult. I'm not going to define any more word meanings for you unless you give an example of the word used in a sentence so I know which meaning of the word you want! -
Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:03:43
there is no standard definition of pen spinning, sorry fresh it's almost all up to personal interpretation what counts as "penspinning" your silly mouth catch thing doesn't sound like penspinning to me, but to you it is :dunno:
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:06:12
strat1227 wrote: there is no standard definition of pen spinning, sorry fresh it's almost all up to personal interpretation what counts as "penspinning" your silly mouth catch thing doesn't sound like penspinning to me, but to you it is :dunno:
This is why I was suggesting we try to work out a definition... -
Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:07:39
that's not productive though, because it will just turn into an argument because it's up to interpretation you think that counts, i dont. how can we have a common definition?
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:08:41
With much discussion. I mean, how did anything end up with a proper definition?
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:12:15
it doesn't matter though, i'm not going to convince you that that's stupid and you're not going to convince me that it's part of pen spinning, so what productive aspect comes out of it? beyond that, in zombo's article he explains exactly why a common definition is near impossible, other than "the manipulation of a pen, generally with one's hands"
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:20:35
@Fresh, so what do you mean by a definition of pen spinning? =_= the wiki gives an adequate definition of what pen spinning means in a bigger picture, to the international community of pen spinners, you can't simply say pen spinning has no definition therefor it isn't valid (that seems to be what you're saying)
It's difficult to have pen spinning competitions when pen spinning itself isn't even defined...
And it seems that you've struck upon a pattern, things often have multiple definitions and mean multiple things to multiple people... Dance, or art are prefect examples of this, me sitting in a chair may not be dance to you, but to me it represents the solitude of humanity and the lack of movement is the absence of the common notion. Or for art, if i made a sculpture and melted it into a puddle, then threw away the puddle, and had the room where the sculpture was made melted and taken out of, and called it abstract art, you could argue with me with your definitions all you want, and maybe I wouldn't win the abstract art competition, but the meaning, according to you definition of a definition =A statement of the meaning of a word or phrase.
is different to me, and the people who see it from my perspective, and thus your definition of such is not incorrect to me. If this becomes the majority, that then becomes the new definition, Zombos article simply explores the aspects of pen spinning today and what we recognize and view as such, sure you could boil water and watch it dance clapping your hands in a circle calling it pen spinning, but pen spinning has multiple definitions as well. It seems almost that youa re suggesting we categorize the aspects of pen spinning further, and this can be dangerous as well, in amny other manipulations, juggling and glowsticking for easy ones, you see this fracturing, when imo, pen spinning is a little bit better in that we don't sanction as much say, power trickers vs spinless spinners but rather encourage and actually the community as a whole tries to find a healthy middle, discouraging either extreme, I think it's healthy, and allows pen spinning to grow while staying unified, it is what it is, and it is pen spinning, if you want a definition if it is that important look and read the wiki, if someone does something aesthitically pleasing and skillfull, then perhaps it COULD be spinning, if you do it by boiling water, maybe not, maybe someone would have a different opinion than me, if you do a flip and catch the pen in your mouth perhaps you will be appluaded for innovation, but in the end you're arguing about a nonexistant fuzzy abstract line which can't be drawn in the sand to separate what something is or isn't.... When you ask a What is question you can answer it objectivly or philisophically Objectivly, I can name you all of the accepted tricks and hybrids, explaining how combos work, how communities work, how and why spinners make mods. That would be your definition of pen spinning, it is a broad subject. Philisophically i would show you the articl, and discuss with you what the boundries of spinning really are, and we wouldn't agree or hit upon a specific definition, much like say music, you can divide it into genres and show how in certain genres there are prevailent themes, but in reality, philisohpically you could argue forever on what is what. edit : going along with the music anolgy say I had a violin, and I decided to play it upside down by tapping the bow and my fingers on its back, am I still playing the violin? literally , objectivly, yes. am I still playing the violin? philisophically, maybe. If I entered a violin competition with this, perhaps if I was amazingly skilled.... but most likely they wouldn't accept it. -
Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:27:36
I don't see any fracturing in the juggling community, none at all. Don't know about glowsticking. I only worry about this for competition, when that one battle happens that one judge scores a combo down for not being pen spinning. Hopefully not in a world tournament/cup.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 03:34:51
Well that could be a problem with the way But that's the beauty/the problem with it unless you have objective categories where a judge will judge specific things, like number of continuous tricks, or require a certain amount of some type, you are in a pickle. This reminds me of figure skating, where they do judge more objectively, on execution etc and this leads to many maybe not problems but irritation. But really the essence of pen spinning is creativity, and I beleive there are themes (i don't follow the wt closely) so a judge may judge a combo based off of the theme, if it is spinless a judge won't judge down because he is doing isolations, but if the theme is something like wipers and the spinner does no wipers, but rather a backflip to a mouth catch, then maybe he did deserve to lose points. This seems more like an issue of the judging system rather than the definition of spinning itself, judging is open to interpretation, otherwise we wouldn't need judges, we trust their opinion and their own unique views. Edit: But this thread is really about that, what do YOU consider pen sipinning? What does that term mean to you.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17 2010 04:08:14
Fresh wrote: I don't see any fracturing in the juggling community, none at all. Don't know about glowsticking.
There's no fracturing in the PS community eitherI only worry about this for competition, when that one battle happens that one judge scores a combo down for not being pen spinning. Hopefully not in a world tournament/cup.
if that happens it's the judge's prerogative. judges are chosen based on their knowledge of the field, if they see something they don't consider penspinning then that's their job, to JUDGE if it were objective instead of subjective they'd be scorers and not judges -
Date: Sat, Dec 18 2010 04:16:43
I think Zombo's definition can be condensed by removing 'aesthetic' to a different discussion. It's redundant. All you really have to say is what you mean by 'pen' and 'manipulation' (or 'spinning'). Pen spinning can have a formal definition. Look up any art or sport in the dictionary. A formal definition can contain ambiguous components. Zombo's definition of pen spinning is a candidate (although not the simplest, in my opinion) for a formal definition of pen spinning. As for competition, judges and participants should be on the same plane in terms of what the competition is all about.