UPSB v4
Linkages & Combos / What is a Linkage?
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Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 02:27:58
Can someone please explain in a definitive way, [B]what a linkage[/B] is and [B]what differentiates it from a combo?[/B] The only explanations I've seen have made it sound exactly the same as a combo and there isn't anywhere that I've found that describes it in a way other than a bunch of tricks strung together, but that's the exact same explanation I've seen everywhere for a combo (besides the ones that say that a combo is linkages and tricks strung together). If someone could clear this up that'd be great, thanks :)
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Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 04:11:09
A link is like a mini combo ( for example the K4LC (kam 4 loop combo ) ) its just a few bunch of trick, It's like a mini breakdown. A breakdown is the whole main thing. Example : Link : ( K4LC ) : (palm down) Sonic 1.0 34-23 > Twisted Sonic 1.5 23-12 > (palm sideways) Thumbspin 1.5 T1-T1 Breakdown : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa4zOxjgNT0 : Thumbaround Rev T1-12 > Pass 12-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Pass 12-23-34-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Bak Rev 12-12 > Shadow Rev 12-T ~ FL Thumbaround Rev T-12 > Bak 12-23 > Midbak 1.5 23-23 x4 > Midbak 23-12 > Inverse Twisted Sonic Rev 12-23 > Pass Rev 23-12 > Twisted Sonic Rev 12-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Neosonic 12-TF > Thumbflap Charge Rev TF-T > FL Thumbaround Rev T-T > FL Thumbaround Rev T-23 > Charge 23-23 > Pass 23-34 > Ringaround 34-34 > Twisted Sonic 34-23 > Devils Sonic 23-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Bak Rev 12-12 > Bak Rev 12-TF > FL Thumbaround TF-TF
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Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 06:22:09
h2o wrote: A link is like a mini combo ( for example the K4LC (kam 4 loop combo ) ) its just a few bunch of trick, It's like a mini breakdown. A breakdown is the whole main thing.
I still don't understand. What differentiates between something being a combo and a linkage is? Like, if it's a mini combo then why do people use the term mini combo to describe short combos? Also, as I know it, a breakdown is just the way to describe a combo, a hybrid, or a linkage so I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about with the breakdown stuff. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 11:54:03
I've always considered a linkage to be two tricks that are performed right after one another, normally interrupted. An few examples would be IndexBak ~ TA rev or [Pd] Inverse sonic 23-13 ~ Shadow 13-12 It doesn't have to be interrupted though and can just be two tricks that are performed one after the other. A mini combo is when you link linkages and create a small combo that consists of maybe 4-5 moves. As stated K4LC is a good example of a mini combo. A proper combo is up to 20-25 tricks performed consecutively.
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Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 12:42:46
JAIvY wrote: I've always considered a linkage to be two tricks that are performed right after one another, normally interrupted. An few examples would be IndexBak ~ TA rev or [Pd] Inverse sonic 23-13 ~ Shadow 13-12 It doesn't have to be interrupted though and can just be two tricks that are performed one after the other. A mini combo is when you link linkages and create a small combo that consists of maybe 4-5 moves. As stated K4LC is a good example of a mini combo. A proper combo is up to 20-25 tricks performed consecutively.
But isn't it a hybrid when one trick is interrupted by another? Also if it's two tricks performed one after the other then why is it that most of the time when I see people perform a linkage in say like @Tigres' PVG links they're more like what you're describing as a mini combo? I'm so confused -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 13:44:09
nv16 wrote: But isn't it a hybrid when one trick is interrupted by another? Also if it's two tricks performed one after the other then why is it that most of the time when I see people perform a linkage in say like @Tigres' PVG links they're more like what you're describing as a mini combo? I'm so confused
No a hybrid is a certain [B]type[/B] of trick. In which two tricks are combined, for example a Twisted Sonic is a hybrid of the Sonic and Pass. It is a combination of the two motions creating one trick. K4LC is a combo by the way, it's in the name :p Think of linkages like this, How do you get from one trick to another trick? How do you get from one trick to a combo? You link the tricks right? Look at VicGotGame's combos, everything is smooth and [B]connected[/B], why? Because he is a master of linkages. A linkage is a string of one or two tricks. How can you get from a Charge to a Sonic, maybe a Pass, the pass would be your link, the three tricks would be your linkage, multiple linkages would be a combo. Good? You can think of a combo as a Chain. A literal chain. With links that [B]make up[/B] the chain. A combo is just a term for multiple tricks strung together. You don't actually spin a combo. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2014 23:29:32
Zen wrote: No a hybrid is a certain [B]type[/B] of trick. In which two tricks are combined, for example a Twisted Sonic is a hybrid of the Sonic and Pass. It is a combination of the two motions creating one trick. K4LC is a combo by the way, it's in the name :p Think of linkages like this, How do you get from one trick to another trick? How do you get from one trick to a combo? You link the tricks right? Look at VicGotGame's combos, everything is smooth and [B]connected[/B], why? Because he is a master of linkages. A linkage is a string of one or two tricks. How can you get from a Charge to a Sonic, maybe a Pass, the pass would be your link, the three tricks would be your linkage, multiple linkages would be a combo. Good? You can think of a combo as a Chain. A literal chain. With links that [B]make up[/B] the chain. A combo is just a term for multiple tricks strung together. You don't actually spin a combo.
So what you're saying is that a link is when one or more tricks are used to link between two tricks, the whole series of tricks including the ones that are being linked together are the link? Like, looking at this breakdown shadowparadox posted in the show off your links thread, this series of tricks would be considered a link because it links together a Ta rev and a palmspin? Ta reverse-> bak fall-> sonic rise 34-12-> shadow 12-23-> twisted sonic bust23-12-> flta -> palmspin. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 00:03:53
nv16 wrote: So what you're saying is that a link is when one or more tricks are used to link between two tricks, the whole series of tricks including the ones that are being linked together are the link? Like, looking at this breakdown shadowparadox posted in the show off your links thread, this series of tricks would be considered a link because it links together a Ta rev and a palmspin? Ta reverse-> bak fall-> sonic rise 34-12-> shadow 12-23-> twisted sonic bust23-12-> flta -> palmspin.
That series of tricks is too long to be called a linkage in my opinion, I would class this as a mini-combo, the thing is that linkages are normally 2-3 tricks long. Learning linkages helps you progress in pen spinning faster, using your example I would say that each two tricks is a linkage, so you would learn, TA Rev > Bak fall Bak fall > Sonic Rise 34-12 Sonic Rise 34-12 > Shadow 12-23 ect. Learning these linkages individually would allow you to be able to perform the combo and make it look smooth and nice essentially. Think of it like this, the more linkages you learn the better you become, learning how to transition from one trick into another adds it to the list of moves you can perform, gradually you will start to build a kind of catalogue of tricks that you can perform. So say when you freestyle you can go into a TA rev and think, what tricks do I know how to perform after this tricks, I can perform this, or this, or this. The more linkages you learn the more variety your combo's will have. To be able to perform long combo's you must have mastered the tricks and mastered how to link each trick into the next. One really good way to find new linkages is to look at breakdowns and try and chop them up into smaller easier bits, if you look at a breakdown of 20-25 tricks you will probably always find two tricks being linked that you never thought of, you then learn this linkage and it joins the catalogue of linkages you can do. Does this make any sense? -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 01:47:56
JAIvY wrote: That series of tricks is too long to be called a linkage in my opinion, I would class this as a mini-combo, the thing is that linkages are normally 2-3 tricks long. Learning linkages helps you progress in pen spinning faster, using your example I would say that each two tricks is a linkage, so you would learn, TA Rev > Bak fall Bak fall > Sonic Rise 34-12 Sonic Rise 34-12 > Shadow 12-23 ect. Learning these linkages individually would allow you to be able to perform the combo and make it look smooth and nice essentially. Think of it like this, the more linkages you learn the better you become, learning how to transition from one trick into another adds it to the list of moves you can perform, gradually you will start to build a kind of catalogue of tricks that you can perform. So say when you freestyle you can go into a TA rev and think, what tricks do I know how to perform after this tricks, I can perform this, or this, or this. The more linkages you learn the more variety your combo's will have. To be able to perform long combo's you must have mastered the tricks and mastered how to link each trick into the next. One really good way to find new linkages is to look at breakdowns and try and chop them up into smaller easier bits, if you look at a breakdown of 20-25 tricks you will probably always find two tricks being linked that you never thought of, you then learn this linkage and it joins the catalogue of linkages you can do. Does this make any sense?
So what you're saying is that linkages are 2-3 tricks performed one after the other, usually with like a change in the execution of the tricks to make it smooth and look nice? @Zen would you agree with this kind of definition? -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 02:13:11
nv16 wrote: So what you're saying is that linkages are 2-3 tricks performed one after the other, usually with like a change in the execution of the tricks to make it smooth and look nice? @Zen would you agree with this kind of definition?
good linkages would be the transitions you practice to go between tricks. If you know TA you can start linking into it different ways, you could go after a ring around instead of starting from the typical T area. Usually direction changes are advised against, but they can be aesthetic when well placed. If you focus on links instead of tricks you will have really aesthetic style. If I am gonna learn a mini combo it needs to have a link I can emulate into my spinning or else I won't bother learning it, but mini combos are a bit bigger than links. Ultimately my answer is that you are over analyzing this and just have to hang around the boards and you will learn this stuff pretty quick (Assuming there is an active community) -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 02:54:14
Awesome wrote: good linkages would be the transitions you practice to go between tricks. If you know TA you can start linking into it different ways, you could go after a ring around instead of starting from the typical T area.
So when you transition from one trick to another in a way that makes it smoother/ look better it's a linkage? Also over analysis seems like it's needed cause three people are all telling me different things, so there's clearly some fault in the knowledge of the terminology of pen spinning. How can we advance pen spinning if we cannot communicate what we're doing to each other? What I'd like is a [B]concise[/B] and [B]agreed upon definition[/B] explaining [B]exactly[/B] what a linkage is. Preferably with a well notated breakdown of an example of a linkage that explains exactly what makes the example a linkage and not just some a tricks or a combo. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 03:28:45
Its generally not a point that needs to be discussed since people who've talked with others about spinning and practice them selves know the terminology. Links are the things between tricks. Thats it.
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 04:30:43
nv16;285876]What I'd like is a [B]concise[/B] and [B]agreed upon definition[/B] explaining [B]exactly[/B] what a linkage is. Preferably with a well notated breakdown of an example of a linkage that explains exactly what makes the example a linkage and not just some a tricks or a combo.[/QUOTE] Well I'm definitely no expert but in my book a linkage is 2-3 tricks that can be performed consecutively, they some times can be interrupted and some times follow on for each other, we use the name linkage because it's essentially that, it's practising two moves one after the other until they can be performed consistently and smoothly (without interruption). The best example of the top of my head would be the IndexBak ~ TA Rev. Say you were to perform Indexbak > TA Rev it would be a lot harder than performing IndexBak ~ TA Rev this goes for other things as well were it just looks more aesthetically pleasing to perform the trick interrupted. Most of the time though it's pretty impossible to perform the tricks interrupted so the linkage is just two tricks performed after one another with the intent of making the transition between tricks easier for yourself and therefore more fluid. This would be shown well by the Sonic Rise. Sometimes you will want to link two tricks that start and end in different finger slot so the use of pass' will come into play were the linkage will then be 3 tricks long, with the link of the two main tricks would be a pass. An example would be [PD] Inverse Sonic Rev 12-13 ~ Pass Rev 13-34 > PinkyBak In this Linkage the pass is the link between the inverse sonic and the pinkybak. I hope this clears thing up and I hope that I'm right but I don't know this is just what I've gathered from this board. [QUOTE=Awesome wrote: If I am gonna learn a mini combo it needs to have a link I can emulate into my spinning or else I won't bother learning it, but mini combos are a bit bigger than links.
Also This Use mini combos to practise links they offer the chance to practise multiple links at once. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 06:35:46
Awesome;285878]Its generally not a point that needs to be discussed since people who've talked with others about spinning and practice them selves know the terminology. Links are the things between tricks. Thats it.[/QUOTE] y'all are saying differing things though, that means that at least some of you guys don't know the terminology. Plus I've been spinning for over 1.5 years and I have no idea what it is cause there's no reliable resource with all the current psing terminology. [QUOTE=JAIvY wrote: Well I'm definitely no expert but in my book a linkage is 2-3 tricks that can be performed consecutively, they some times can be interrupted and some times follow on for each other, we use the name linkage because it's essentially that, it's practising two moves one after the other until they can be performed consistently and smoothly (without interruption). The best example of the top of my head would be the IndexBak ~ TA Rev. Say you were to perform Indexbak > TA Rev it would be a lot harder than performing IndexBak ~ TA Rev this goes for other things as well were it just looks more aesthetically pleasing to perform the trick interrupted. Most of the time though it's pretty impossible to perform the tricks interrupted so the linkage is just two tricks performed after one another with the intent of making the transition between tricks easier for yourself and therefore more fluid. This would be shown well by the Sonic Rise. Sometimes you will want to link two tricks that start and end in different finger slot so the use of pass' will come into play were the linkage will then be 3 tricks long, with the link of the two main tricks would be a pass. An example would be [PD] Inverse Sonic Rev 12-13 ~ Pass Rev 13-34 > PinkyBak In this Linkage the pass is the link between the inverse sonic and the pinkybak. I hope this clears thing up and I hope that I'm right but I don't know this is just what I've gathered from this board.
Okay, so what I've gotten from is that and from what I think some other people are trying to say is that: A linkage is the modification of the execution between 2-3 tricks as to make it so they follow on from each other in a smooth and aesthetically pleasing manner. Is this correct? It might be a bit hard for all of you to properly understand what I'm talking about, if the definition I just wrote is wrong then I'll probably try making a video to try explain what I'm asking better -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 13:55:51
nv16 wrote: Okay, so what I've gotten from is that and from what I think some other people are trying to say is that: A linkage is the modification of the execution between 2-3 tricks as to make it so they follow on from each other in a smooth and aesthetically pleasing manner. Is this correct? It might be a bit hard for all of you to properly understand what I'm talking about, if the definition I just wrote is wrong then I'll probably try making a video to try explain what I'm asking better
That's pretty much it, the point of linkages is to learn the technique that is required to link the two tricks together in a smooth manner. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2014 20:32:22
In my opinion you are over complicating things. It's not really about what the definition but your own definition. If you are a master of links you are smooth. Meaning if you are smooth then you can link. In my opinion a linkage is usually 3 tricks, so it would be a technique. Example Okay let's pretend all the letter of the alphabet are streets. So A-street, B-street and so one. You are on A-street. You want to get to Z-street but you don't know how to get to Z-street from A-street. But you do know how to get from H-Z So now you have to figure out how to get from A to H. The way you get to H is the technique, once you get to H you can get to Z right? The point of a linkage is to, link to a linkage you already know. TA to Charge to Sonic is a linkage you already know. Now all you have to figure out is how to link to TA and you can do the other tricks. So you could do Twisted sonic 34 to Neosonic to FLTA to TA. Because you linked to the TA at the end you can do the entire thing which would be Twisted sonic 34 to Neosonic to FLTA to TA to Charge to Sonic Got it?
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2014 06:43:41
Okay, this makes sense and is along the same lines as what JAIvY said so I'm just gonna go with that definition.
Zen wrote: It's not really about what the definition but your own definition.
Also, I don't think that this is really a good thing, like, we need proper definitions of things so we can clearly communicate certain ideas with each other. It's like how one time I had a conversation with my friend who, at the time, thought that S&M meant sex and money, I on the other hand, I thought it meant sadism and masochism. The conversation didn't really work until he was all like wait what this isn't sex and money? So what's going on in the psing community is everyone's going around being like yeah look at muh linkage though there are people that are like but that's a mini combo and others that are being like 'idk what a linkage is but if you guys that's a linkage than I guess it must be' but yeah, definitions are kinda important so that other people can like, understand what you're sayin' -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2014 20:01:18
nv16 wrote: definitions are kinda important so that other people can like, understand what you're sayin'
I agree that definitions are important, but in the broad scope of things it isn't necessary. It doesn't matter if one person's linkage is another person's mini-combo, in the end you should look at the tricks they are doing and say to yourself, hey I can't do that bit of his combo so that's the bit that I'm going to try and master. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2014 21:18:27
What do u want it to be?
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2014 23:16:33
JAIvY;285947]I agree that definitions are important, but in the broad scope of things it isn't necessary. It doesn't matter if one person's linkage is another person's mini-combo, in the end you should look at the tricks they are doing and say to yourself, hey I can't do that bit of his combo so that's the bit that I'm going to try and master.[/QUOTE] It's not necessary if I'm never going to talk to anyone about it, but I probably am cause I spend almost all day with upsb open lmao [QUOTE=ShadowParadox wrote: What do u want it to be?
but what does it want itself to be? -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2014 09:07:24
nv16 wrote: It's not necessary if I'm never going to talk to anyone about it, but I probably am cause I spend almost all day with upsb open lmao but what does it want itself to be?
But seriously what do u want it to be? Whatever u want it to be, it will be -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2014 09:30:24
ShadowParadox wrote: But seriously what do u want it to be? Whatever u want it to be, it will be
So you're saying that whatever I want it to be will become it's agreed upon definition that everyone will use? -
Date: Fri, Aug 1 2014 15:15:27
lol @nv16 i agree with you that we need proper definitions, but in my opinion it really isn't all that important. It is one of those things that people should already know, or heard of, or seen. I have no doubt that you have seen a linkage before. It is almost second nature to us. Just think of a combo as a chain and you will understand
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Date: Sat, Aug 2 2014 01:35:26
Zen wrote: I have no doubt that you have seen a linkage before. It is almost second nature to us. Just think of a combo as a chain and you will understand
lmao I know I've seen them before cause I've watched all of Tigres PVG simple linkages and tbh I probably do linkages whenever I'm FSing but I don't really get what differentiates a linkage from a mini combo, cause I've always thought a combo was a chain of tricks. From all this I think that what a linkage is has to do with how you execute each trick to make them all smoothly follow on from each other, for example performing a sonic 23-12 > ta to make it smooth you'd complete the ta push with your index finger rather than using your middle finger like how it's normally performed on its own.