UPSB v4
Research Department Feedback / Changing State Notation (CSN)
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 18:37:57
Welcome! Just a foreword, this is not intended to be a replacement system! [SPOILER="Premise"]The current notation system is working quite well, so this is not a replacement, more a theoretical idea of a "perfect" notation system. At the moment, the current notation system relies on performed tricks as the limiting factor, and holding slots, with some parameters and modifiers to further extend that. However, our current notation system is not a definitive way of solving all known combos that could POSSIBLY be notated, but works [B]99.9%[/B] of the time. Therefore, I have decided to demonstrate, as an example, what a 'true' limitless notation system could look like.[/SPOILER] [SPOILER="Brainstorming a system"]Notation is similar in a way to programming. You input instructions to describe a final result. So notating is like describing a solution to a problem. The problem is that you don't know what to do to execute a combo, the solution is a series of steps that shows how to execute the combo and therefore solve the problem. As all 'problems' are very much similar, we do not have to have a different system for each problem, so we can devise a coding language based around solving every single problem. In order to solve every single problem, we need to first define the limitations of what can be notated, so therefore any situation that appears can be explained. The limitations are areas on the hand and areas on the pen, as well as the positioning of the pen and its direction of motion. So under this notation, we notate the entire hand, where the pen is and what direction it is moving in, rather than tricks. [/SPOILER] [SPOILER="The limitations"]In this notation system, we are going to neglect the arms and the rest of the body and focus purely on the hands, although it can be expanded to include that. So, let's start with the hands and then move onto the pen with what we need to notate: [B]Hands[/B] [B]Wrist rotation[/B] - There are four possible wrist rotations. Palm up (like palmspin), palm sideways, palm down and inverse palm sideways (with your right hand, face it palm down and then turn it 90 degrees counter clockwise) [B]Fingers[/B] - Fingers may be outstretched or curled in. Fingers may be in contact with the pen, under which different surfaces may be holding said pen. Fingers may also be crossed. [B]Pens[/B] [B]Number of pens[/B] - There may be multiple pens in the same hand or on different hands, or just one. [B]Spinning direction[/B] - The spin may be conical or non-conical. In the case of conical it mus be notated as clockwise or anti clockwise, in the case of non-conical, it should be notated with direction of motion (such as arounds). [B]Angle[/B] - The angle the pen is at, at the recorded moment in time. [B]Position[/B] Where the pen is, held by fingerslots or in a location on the hand. [B]Other[/B] [B]Time[/B] - The most unique aspect of my notation system. Time between switching states, relative to other states. Allows for notation of stalls and for faster and slower areas. It is not measured in seconds as the true 'time' depends on spinner style. [B]State[/B] - A crucial moment in time where all of the above is recorded. Any time an individual change happens, a new state is created. If two or more things are performed simultaneously, they can be combined in a single state, removing the need for simultaneous notation. [/SPOILER] [B][SIZE="3"]THE NOTATION[/SIZE][/B] [SPOILER="BEGIN, END, NOTE, KEY and COMMENTS"]The notation is structured line by line, rather than by a '->', in order to make it easier on the eyes to read. The notated description starts with a BEGIN statement and ends with an END statement, so we get:
[B]BEGIN[/B] Instructions [B]END[/B]
The reason for BEGIN and END statements is to allow for parameters before and after the combo. Two of these I implement from the start are the KEY and the NOTE statements, which go at the top and bottom, respectively:[B]KEY:[/B] [B]BEGIN[/B] Instructions [B]END[/B] [B]NOTE:[/B]
KEY is actually a pen key and is used for defining what pen or mod is referred to by the identifiers. Identifiers are alphabetical, so they are A B C D E F..., in the case of more than 26 pens being used, a number may be added after the letter, so A1, B1, C1... You use the equals '=' statement to notate which identifier is linked to which mod, and describe the mod in English:[B]KEY:[/B] A = Dr. KT B = Buster
[B]KEY:[/B] A = White buster B = Menowa* Buster C = HAL KT
If you have two or more mods that are identical, you can notate like so:[B]KEY:[/B] A = White buster starting in left hand B = White buster starting in right hand
[B]KEY:[/B] A = White buster starting in right hand held between thumb and index B = White buster starting in right hand held between pinky and ring
English descriptions are used for absolute clarity, and with the idea that the key does not need to be repeated, unlike the actual notated instructions. The NOTE command is one of two ways of commenting on the notated instructions. NOTE always appears at the end of the combo and is used as follows:[B]END NOTE:[/B] Notated by eurocracy
This is a general comment and while it can refer to sections of the notation, it is designed to comment on the notation as a whole, such as crediting the authors, claiming which bits may be incorrect, whether it is incomplete, etc. The second way of commenting is through a specific comment which takes place in the instruction area, it exists on one line and is written after two backslashes '//'. Example:[B]BEGIN[/B] Instruction // This part is very difficult! Instruction [B]END[/B]
I think this is messier but you can still do it:[B]BEGIN[/B] Instruction // This part is very difficult! Instruction [B]END[/B]
This concludes the pen KEY, the BEGIN and END statements and commenting. I hope you're following so far! [/SPOILER] [SPOILER="States and selectors"]A 'state' in CSN is a snapshot of what is occurring in the breakdown at a certain moment in time. States occur in order and are identified by an increasing number at the beginning of the line of code. To define a state you put them in the notation like so:[B]BEGIN[/B] [B]1)[/B] Rest of the state notation [B]2)[/B] Rest of the state notation [B]3)[/B] Rest of the state notation [B]END[/B]
Very simple, right? The reason for the numbers is so they can be easily pointed out in the notation, so if you mess up a line, someone can point out to you in a way such as "State 23) is incorrect at the fingercross parameter". I'd recommend leaving a line of white space between each recorded state, as it makes it easier on the eyes. We can then move to notate the hand. First we must make out that we are notating the hand through the use of a selector. Selectors are in curly brackets '{}'. There are only two Selectors, and they select either a hand, or a pen. To select a hand we use:[B]{H L}[/B] OR [B]{H R}[/B]
This allows us to select the left (L) or right (R) hand. To notate which pen we are notating we use:[B]{P[/B] identifier[B] }[/B] EXAMPLE: [B]{P A}[/B]
Multiple selectors can be used in a state, so you can notate at a single state all the pens used and both hands. [/SPOILER] [B]THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, IF YOU HAVE SUGGESTIONS NOW IS THE TIME TO GIVE THEM[/B] Constructive criticism is appreciated, but 'tl;dr' comments are not. -
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 22:00:50
Says hes leaving upsb... Tries to change penspinning system. Sorry, when did you say you were leaving?
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 22:03:49
Snip I am not leaving.
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 22:06:03
If it has no meaning than why post?
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 22:07:33
-Snip, this is not who I want to be
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 22:23:05
Penis. Breakdowns can't be compared to programming at all. Please actually learn anything about programming before writing shit.
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 22:27:19
Snip, this is not who I want to be.
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 23:08:22
basically you are not satisfied with the UPSB notation system?0.0 too many words to read=.= just state out your desire instead of writing essays and not bring out the point. I had to say, I admire by the amount of details you show in a single post.
-
Date: Sat, Jun 22 2013 23:33:20
Tigres wrote: basically you are not satisfied with the UPSB notation system?0.0 too many words to read=.= just state out your desire instead of writing essays and not bring out the point. I had to say, I admire by the amount of details you show in a single post.
No, I don't want to replace our system. I want to develop a system that allows for the maximum amount of possibilities. A mental challenge of what we could notate, it's just an experiment. I am nowhere near finished writing the article, but I will add some more tomorrow. I write a lot to show my thought processes and reasoning behind each element, as it is so new. -
Date: Sun, Jun 23 2013 03:04:00
Very nice However imo including which mod are being used is useless, since there are a lot of spinners who uses their personal mod which no one knows about Also iirc mod doesn't affect difficulty in any way
-
Date: Sun, Jun 23 2013 05:33:57
If this is how you like to breakdown combos, do so. The current notation system is already fine and much easier to use than this one. People will watch the vid and looking at the breakdown will help them understand what tricks and linkages are being done. There is no need to include "Time" and "Angle" or "Number of pens" in the notation. The vid is there for reason. The idea of including pen mods in the notation is just horrible. Also, the pen position is already used in every breakdown. The only useful additions would probably be "Wrist Rotation" and "Spinning Direction". And even these two aren't always necessary. For example, using [PD]bak every time would be stupid because everyone knows a bak is normally done palm down, but if it was palm up, the breakdown should probably state that. (Same goes for the spinning direction of most tricks). Again, this "notation system" is pretty much useless. It makes combos much harder to breakdown and the breakdowns much harder to read. You are making stuff more complicated than they are supposed to be. :shake:
-
Date: Sun, Jun 23 2013 06:05:42
eazi-penspinner wrote: If this is how you like to breakdown combos, do so. The current notation system is already fine and much easier to use than this one. People will watch the vid and looking at the breakdown will help them understand what tricks and linkages are being done. There is no need to include "Time" and "Angle" or "Number of pens" in the notation. The vid is there for reason. The idea of including pen mods in the notation is just horrible. Also, the pen position is already used in every breakdown. The only useful additions would probably be "Wrist Rotation" and "Spinning Direction". And even these two aren't always necessary. For example, using [PD]bak every time would be stupid because everyone knows a bak is normally done palm down, but if it was palm up, the breakdown should probably state that. (Same goes for the spinning direction of most tricks). Again, this "notation system" is pretty much useless. It makes combos much harder to breakdown and the breakdowns much harder to read. You are making stuff more complicated than they are supposed to be. :shake:
As I said in the first few lines, this is a concept and an experiment, not a replacement system. As for notating pens, I wanted to demonstrate a system that can notate multiple pen combos. The key is merely a key for tracking which pen in the breakdown is referred to by which mnenomic. Angle (of thehand and the pen), is still a detail that needs to be there if we want an 'absolute' breakdown, so one that does not require extra explanation or a video. I never claimed it was practical or anything more than a thought experiment, though. -
Date: Sun, Jun 23 2013 06:37:32
You can type a block of text including alot of information about the combo, but it's not possible to replace the video with a breakdown. Breakdowns should be used along with videos so the viewer can understand what's going on better. You pretty much convinced me about the pen tracking breakdowns. I read the first post wrong and I didn't understand what you meant. It can be a useful addition to breaking down multiple pen combos if kept simple.
-
Date: Sun, Jun 23 2013 06:47:04
eazi-penspinner wrote: You can type a block of text including alot of information about the combo, but it's not possible to replace the video with a breakdown. Breakdowns should be used along with videos so the viewer can understand what's going on better. You pretty much convinced me about the pen tracking breakdowns. I read the first post wrong and I didn't understand what you meant. It can be a useful addition to breaking down multiple pen combos if kept simple.
This is designed to cover everything, so that anything can be understood without a video. I doubt it's impossible, merely you need a very advanced and bulky system, like this one. Of course, in reality we would use a video, but this is a 'complete' system in that it covers all required details, without having to write it in wordy english. In practical usage, this can be used to discover tricks outside our breakdown system, as it accounts for all tricks. -
Date: Mon, Jun 24 2013 05:59:45
KEY: R = RSVP MX BEGIN //{H L} {P R} 1) [B + A] 2.o 3.i - 1.b 2.t 3.b 4.t 2) [B + A] 1.b 2.t 3.b 4.t - 1.o 2.f 3.b 4.i 3) 1.o 2.b 3.t 4.i //change in position of non-holding fingers 4) A T.f 1.f 2.b 3.t 4.i 5) [B + A] T.f 1.f 2.b 3.t 4.b 6) T.f 1.b 2.f 3.i //Change in position of non-holding fingers 7) [A] T.f 1.f 2.b 3.t 4.b - 1.b 2.t 3.b 4.t END NOTE: GOOD LUCK FINDING OUT WHAT THIS MINI COMBO IS!!!!
-
Date: Mon, Jun 24 2013 15:40:21
spenpinner wrote: KEY: R = RSVP MX BEGIN //{H L} {P R} 1) [B + A] 2.o 3.i - 1.b 2.t 3.b 4.t 2) [B + A] 1.b 2.t 3.b 4.t - 1.o 2.f 3.b 4.i 3) 1.o 2.b 3.t 4.i //change in position of non-holding fingers 4) A T.f 1.f 2.b 3.t 4.i 5) [B + A] T.f 1.f 2.b 3.t 4.b 6) T.f 1.b 2.f 3.i //Change in position of non-holding fingers 7) [A] T.f 1.f 2.b 3.t 4.b - 1.b 2.t 3.b 4.t END NOTE: GOOD LUCK FINDING OUT WHAT THIS MINI COMBO IS!!!!
You're using hexbinmos' tricks in CSN. CSN is a notation without any tricks. What are you trying to prove? I gave you a full reply in the other thread. -
Date: Wed, Jun 26 2013 04:08:07
Oh, but this was done correctly! The bit of Heximbos was a twist I added, and I assure you it is done correctly. As you can see I also added your suggestions on making the finger placements notable. I'm not trying to prove anything to you, but suggesting that you should be more detailed when explaining your thoughts. You have to be thorough! And what really helps is to make a completed combo that sets an example for what you are trying to describe! By which this combo shows what I made step-by-step based on your instructions. As for what the trick actually is... You shall find out in good time. Unless you care to keep decoding it...
-
Date: Wed, Jun 26 2013 08:40:34
spenpinner wrote: Oh, but this was done correctly! The bit of Heximbos was a twist I added, and I assure you it is done correctly. As you can see I also added your suggestions on making the finger placements notable. I'm not trying to prove anything to you, but suggesting that you should be more detailed when explaining your thoughts. You have to be thorough! And what really helps is to make a completed combo that sets an example for what you are trying to describe! By which this combo shows what I made step-by-step based on your instructions. As for what the trick actually is... You shall find out in good time. Unless you care to keep decoding it...
Hahaha, no. You mix notation systems and switch between them inbetween, making it impossible to understand which one you are specifically referring to. CSN is a WIP and you followed what little instructions I had incorrectly, even adding tricks into a trickless notation system. This cannibalisation of notation can never be said to be based upon my work, merely it pretends to be. In the other thread I explained fully how retarded that notation was. -
Date: Thu, Jun 27 2013 02:57:00
Okay. If you're going to be like that. Do not ever tell me to go learn notation. I've learned and known notation since 2009. Obviously you are the one who can't seem to get a grasp on it. Its an already perfect system for writing links/combos. The only thing that maybe should be changed is notating finger position. And aside from your eye-gouging attempt to notate that, chainbreak has already brought up a simple solution which has proved very effective when writing links. But you know what? even though its good its not going to change because people are content with the current notating system, but you still bring up suggestions as if something is going to happen! You are beating a dead horse! Oh, and speaking of things that are dead, your home on this forum is a dead department. "I'm going to focus on reviving the Research Department"....WHY? That Department has been and will stay dead because there is nothing more to research and develop. The only thing to do now is to mix and match tricks. And yet you still persist to type your little thoughts on that subforum which hardly anyone cares about including most of the people who are a part of the RD. And I don't blame them. Your attempts to make a system that has the capability of discovering new possibilities in pen-spinning by writing only is completely unnecessary and a waste of time because there are no new tricks, but only variations of already discovered tricks (And would it hurt to actually add an actual combo that shows an example on your ideas). And on top of that, who would want to try and do that anyway when you have the pen around your fingers to experiment with in a MUCH quicker fashion. This is pen-spinning, not algebra. The only thing that poses some value that goes to your credit is the polarized charges which almost has no value other than the fact that it exists. Please, deflate your ego. There isn't any glory in trying to change the way we define pen-spinning.
-
Date: Thu, Jun 27 2013 17:59:51
spenpinner;263184]Okay. If you're going to be like that. Do not ever tell me to go learn notation. I've learned and known notation since 2009.[/QUOTE] Sure you did, you didn't understand it back then and you don't now. For example your incorrect 'raimo bust', which was a bak rev 13-12, while a real raimo bust (raimo bak rev) uses a fingercross motion. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]Obviously you are the one who can't seem to get a grasp on it. Its an already perfect system for writing links/combos.[/QUOTE] It has several limitations, albeit most people never notice. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]The only thing that maybe should be changed is notating finger position.[/QUOTE] In my thread we have shown that both F2F and RPD have seperate methods of notating it. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]And aside from your eye-gouging attempt to notate that, chainbreak has already brought up a simple solution which has proved very effective when writing links.[/QUOTE] He used the same notation as multiple hand notation, so it failed horrifically. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]But you know what? even though its good its not going to change because people are content with the current notating system, but you still bring up suggestions as if something is going to happen![/QUOTE] Several people are not entirely content with the notation system as most people know it (e.g. F2F and RPD who each have made their own adjustments to it), the point of suggesting improvements is to reduce or remove limitations. This is a thought experiment, on the other hand. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]You are beating a dead horse! Oh, and speaking of things that are dead, your home on this forum is a dead department. "I'm going to focus on reviving the Research Department"....WHY? That Department has been and will stay dead because there is nothing more to research and develop.[/QUOTE] People thought everything to do with penspinning was researched back in 2007, with the F2F of back then being bonkura. Pen spinning has not been proven to have any real limits so far (actually there are but the amount of combinations of pen motions you can perform is so mindboggling huge it is better to say we'll never hit the limit). You are just defeatist. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]The only thing to do now is to mix and match tricks.[/QUOTE] Who died and made you king of penspinning to announce all tricks have been discovered? Especially since you have not even learnt or able to name all of them in the first place. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]And yet you still persist to type your little thoughts on that subforum which hardly anyone cares about including most of the people who are a part of the RD.[/QUOTE] The real researchers who are active in the RD that have read my threads tend to like them. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]And I don't blame them. Your attempts to make a system that has the capability of discovering new possibilities in pen-spinning by writing only is completely unnecessary[/QUOTE] Actually it writes only what is necessary to describe everything at each step and nothing else. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]and a waste of time because there are no new tricks, but only variations of already discovered tricks[/QUOTE] There are many new tricks being created, though very few 'foundational' tricks. Did you know that most tricks can be broken down into fingerswitch, fingercross and wiper, along with FL fingerswitch, of course. So, 3 tricks? Those are not what we call tricks. For example we had the lever from A13x just this year, F2F continuously makes new ones ( annoyingly he's the biggest barrier for me, I have a massive video collection of new tricks and he looks through them and goes "Done it, done it, done it, ooh that's nice but I've done it") and I myself demonstrated what I call the EuroAround (you can see it done in the Moonwalk TA thread I made). I also demonstrated several new tricks in my WT qualification video. Just because you can't think of new tricks doesn't mean nobody else can. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184](And would it hurt to actually add an actual combo that shows an example on your ideas).[/QUOTE] I give videos when demonstrating new tricks, if you wish to see them being performed, subscribe to me for my UPSBT videos, they will be utilising my links and tricks. As for notation, researchers will understand without a video, non-researchers will not understand regardless. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]And on top of that, who would want to try and do that anyway when you have the pen around your fingers to experiment with in a MUCH quicker fashion.[/QUOTE] Some of the more complicated things I have performed had to be worked out in notation before being executed, to remove charges and force the pen where I want it to go. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]This is pen-spinning, not algebra.[/QUOTE] And this notation system bears no similarity to algebra [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]The only thing that poses some value that goes to your credit is the polarized charges which almost has no value other than the fact that it exists.[/QUOTE] I've been talking with F2F to work out how best to deploy them, being so dismissive is only defeatist. [QUOTE=spenpinner;263184]Please, deflate your ego.[/QUOTE] Irrelevant to the topic and I hadn't mentioned myself at all in my reply to you, only at the fact you cannibalised multiple notation systems to look smart, much to my disgust. [QUOTE=spenpinner wrote: There isn't any glory in trying to change the way we define pen-spinning.
Why? Is it bad to want to try new things and be creative? -
Date: Fri, Jun 28 2013 09:58:53
Stop now. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, it's just you both spewing cheeky garbage at each other.
-
Date: Fri, Jun 28 2013 13:01:12
IDK i haven't read but I gave credit to eurocracy for bringing up new ideas. but i agree that adding what type of pens and the angel are a little bit unnecessary. unless some ppl actually resquest for it. as for tommy and spenpinner....just stop bro. you guys will not win against the magnificent eurocracy. TEEHEE
-
Date: Fri, Jun 28 2013 18:17:44
GeeGeeGee wrote: IDK i haven't read but I gave credit to eurocracy for bringing up new ideas. but i agree that adding what type of pens and the angel are a little bit unnecessary. unless some ppl actually resquest for it. as for tommy and spenpinner....just stop bro. you guys will not win against the [B]magnificent eurocracy[/B]. TEEHEE
-____- Anyways, I'll post some update this weekend. The angle of the pen, may not need to be notated, just the spinning direction. I will leave it last then, and then if I cannot break the system with it omitted, I will not add it. -
Date: Wed, Jul 3 2013 20:05:29
Angle of the pen? :facepalm:
-
Date: Sat, Jul 6 2013 04:56:51
God damn butthurt :rofl:
spenpinner wrote: Okay. If you're going to be like that. Do not ever tell me to go learn notation. I've learned and known notation since 2009. Obviously you are the one who can't seem to get a grasp on it. Its an already perfect system for writing links/combos. The only thing that maybe should be changed is notating finger position. And aside from your eye-gouging attempt to notate that, chainbreak has already brought up a simple solution which has proved very effective when writing links. But you know what? even though its good its not going to change because people are content with the current notating system, but you still bring up suggestions as if something is going to happen! You are beating a dead horse! Oh, and speaking of things that are dead, your home on this forum is a dead department. "I'm going to focus on reviving the Research Department"....WHY? That Department has been and will stay dead because there is nothing more to research and develop. The only thing to do now is to mix and match tricks. And yet you still persist to type your little thoughts on that subforum which hardly anyone cares about including most of the people who are a part of the RD. And I don't blame them. Your attempts to make a system that has the capability of discovering new possibilities in pen-spinning by writing only is completely unnecessary and a waste of time because there are no new tricks, but only variations of already discovered tricks (And would it hurt to actually add an actual combo that shows an example on your ideas). And on top of that, who would want to try and do that anyway when you have the pen around your fingers to experiment with in a MUCH quicker fashion. This is pen-spinning, not algebra. The only thing that poses some value that goes to your credit is the polarized charges which almost has no value other than the fact that it exists. Please, deflate your ego. There isn't any glory in trying to change the way we define pen-spinning.
-
Date: Sun, Jul 7 2013 03:27:36
eurocracy wrote: -____- Anyways, I'll post some update this weekend. The angle of the pen, may not need to be notated, just the spinning direction. I will leave it last then, and then if I cannot break the system with it omitted, I will not add it.
I apologize eurocracy. Lashing out at you like that was uncalled for, and I hope we can be friends! -
Date: Mon, Jul 8 2013 14:04:33
Well at least someone tried goddammit. You guys say people don't contribute to the Pen Spinning community and this is what you guys do when people actually do.
-
Date: Mon, Jul 8 2013 15:30:26
Alex wrote: Well at least someone tried goddammit. You guys say people don't contribute to the Pen Spinning community and this is what you guys do when people actually do.
Well, I plan on releasing my 'Ideas' video folder when I am knocked out of UPSBT, I guess that will be nicer to look through than complex notation. -
Date: Mon, Jul 22 2013 03:44:10
Ok... I could harshly understand a thing about that. Its nice trying to bring PS new concepts and ideas, that refreshes and keep things in a constant change. Thats what makes PS interesting, the "infinite" possibilities, in a combo with new tricks, or in the BD, with new notations. However, I think that the BD of, lets call it, "new tricks", such as F2F and people that have his style of spinning, is kinda useless. I mean, only someone with a higher level on PS would be able to do that. A slowmo would work just fine, you dont need confusing notations to fuck your head... thats where I stand on it at least... Oh, and the mod notation would only work if someone blind PSed.
-
Date: Mon, Jul 22 2013 08:42:28
@DArKT If you attempt to watch fel2fram vidros in slomo you will realise just how little sense a slomo makes. Notation is much clearer.
-
Date: Mon, Jul 22 2013 13:28:32
Thats my point. I find it easier with the slomo.Maybe it differs from people to people, notations in complex combos confuse me '-'