UPSB v4
Research Department Feedback / Notating locations on fingers
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Date: Sat, Jun 8 2013 19:36:22
@RPD
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Date: Sat, Jun 8 2013 22:27:14
1) More trick names clutter up the system, avoiding this actually makes things simpler in the long run. 2) This allows for new tricks using different positions on the finger to be notated. This can be used to notate fingercross position holds more accurately, too, it is a very versatile system!
I agree with that. But the things you got there are kinda solved. The "." device is already developed, in another meaning. An example is 12.3 that means that the mod is between 12 and 3. 12 in one side, 3 in another. this has more specifications, but meh, not today x) And...i - 'inside', inside being towards the body, towards the thumb. Left side of the finger for right handed people (palm down), right side for left handed people. o - 'outside', outside being away from the body, away from the thumb . Right side of the finger for right handed people (palm down), left side for left handed people. f - 'front', the front of the finger, where the fingerprint is. b -'back', the back of the finger, where the nail is. ADDITIONAL: t 'tip', the top of the finger, a position like a BBallSpin.
was also discussed and developed in FPSB. comparing both notations your "f" is the "p", fingerpalm your "b" is the "b" indeed. fingerback Why those letters are not confused with P "palm and B "back" fingers? because those are in capital letters, and b p are in non-capitals. An example B1 means that the mod is between B (back of the hand) and 1 (anywhere of index finger) 1b of b1 (some spinners notate it that way) means that the mod is in the back of index finger. no mattex which phalanx, etc notating the sides of the fingers is either confusing and unnecesary. With fingercross notation, everything can be done only with b and pWe currently have the problem of twirls and i-o sonics, which are very similar in how they operate. Combining them into a more versatile trick I coin the 'transfer' would eliminate confusion and allow for other possibilities. A transfer is where the pen shifts from one finger positioning set while held in a finger slot to another. So while we currently have a twirl notated as: Twirl T.b1 -> bT.1 [...] Transfer T.f 1.b -> T.b 1.f
Hm. Again to the previous concepts (I'm not sure if you know them all, fel always tells me some more, so I'm also learning :D) we have the fingerswitch trick. What is that? kind of what you say fingerswitch is a concept (not really a trick, by itself its kinda unrelevant) that means a transition, transfer, between two slots, without doing any specific trick at all, and with no spin (rotations of a simple fswitch are 0.0) this allows us to "dismount" tricks in a more basic notation (there is a notation, developed by hex, that sums up all trick into 6. this is like a little part of it) for example sonic = fingerswitch + charge that allows us to answer, for example, is this trick a sonic? yes, because it has more than 0.0 rotations and the start and end slots are not the same. if they were the same the trick would be a simple charge lol. So. about twirls. We could say that the slot is changing (mod is not static, its position is changing in either fingerpalm or fingerback) so its a fingerswitch trick (not still) Also, it has a conic rotation, so it includes a charge. So, we could say that a twirl IS a sonic. Right? And, no need of new trick, fingerswitch is only needed for explaining why its a sonic. the changing slots can be notated with both b p and dot notations. ANDDDD about io sonics, passes, whatever. I discussed this a lot with fel, and its also solved. We made 2 ways of notating this, informal and formal one In informal, I and O modifiers are used, with the help of mirrored modifier, to explain the slots. How? How fel uses them in the video. lol. well, lets write it we consider that in an IO, OI, OO, II trick, we are using oposed fingers (1 and T are oposed, 1 and 2 arent) and, if the mod is in the back of the 1-4 finger, its out. if its in the palm, its in. same for the thumb but adding mirrored modifier. In formal, we consider that position as a fingercrossing (as some more discussion, we ended saying that they could be both fingercrossing and special finger positions, but thats another topic) and, we use an extended fingercross notation, in conjunction with dot notation and b p notation. With all those things, we can get a really simple notation for simple things, and a complex notation for complex things. Should it be that way? i think it should.'Why would you make it MORE COMPLICATED'
As I said before, i think that you dont know those concepts. I love when people get interested in notation, and try to complete it. But most of those bugs/problems have already been solved. So, I would want you to ask any question about those notations i've said, and to rewrite the post (if you still think that way, maybe you still find lack in notation that i cant see) -
Date: Sat, Jun 8 2013 23:25:36
Just quickly from my phone so this may not be in depth @RPD If '.' is already used then fair enough, my mistake. I can see why fel used it as a divider, but I have not seen this documented anywhere before. Anyhow, the problem I saw with finger switch is that it switches fingers, it is a sonic 0.0. By definition if you do not switch the fingers it is not a finger switch. I feel the motion of a fingerswitch betrays that of a 'transfer' in that the latter is 'rolling' fingers into a new position. Though I see where you're coming from here. Twirls actually lack a conical motion, they are travelling along an around/pass path somewhat. Therefore as it does not have a charge and it is debatable whether fingerswitch (sonic 0.0) applies to it, it is not quite proven to be a sonic. The informal way adds a whole bunch of trick names, which is against what naming conventions attempted to avoid, plus the mirror modifier, which is not a real modifier! It seems to go against at the very least what UPSB's research department has tried to do! However, I can understand trick names being normal for infomal, but for formal, you claim I don't know what I'm talking about when your knowledge stems from a board written in French and private convos between you and fel. This is not an insult of your knowledge, more so that there is no way I could have possibly known this! Anyway, I think you should not dismiss sides of fingers too early, I think that by defining the limits of what we can do in notation like that, we can form through abstraction new ideas. I'd like to see how you would notate how I would notate in transfer notation as: Transfer Tf.1f-Tf.1b Formally. I'm curious as to the method you use to demonstrate something that is not fingercross but different finger positions formally.
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Date: Sun, Jun 9 2013 07:20:33
Transfer Tf.1f-Tf.1b
First, we change transfer by fingerswitch (the idea is the same, right?) Second, we notate all basically. fingerswitch T1-T1 This makes no sense, so lets add formal modifiers BTWFormally. I'm curious as to the method you use to demonstrate something that is not fingercross but different finger positions formally.
Its explained here (its french but just compare pictures and notation) http://www.thefpsb.com/t1527-conceptidees-extension-de-la-notation-fc-avec-i-o-fcs for the first slot, we have 2 ways of notating it. Tp.1p or Tp.1p[Tp=1p] The last one, the most formal one, says that the mod is between thumb palm, index palm and both tp and 1p are touching or trying to touch themselves, they are in the nearest option possible (because the = modifier) For the second one, something similar. Tp.1b or Tp.1b[Tp>1b] or Tp.1b[fc Tp1b] depending on how are fingers crossed. In the first one, we just ommit the fc, but there is still one. So it could be something like fingerswitch Tp.1p - Tp.1b And giving more information about finger positioning with these fingerswitch Tp.1p[Tp=1p] - Tp.1b[Tp>1b] fingerswitch Tp.1p[Tp=1p] - Tp.1b[fc Tp1b] Got it? :DBy definition if you do not switch the fingers it is not a finger switch. I feel the motion of a fingerswitch betrays that of a 'transfer' in that the latter is 'rolling' fingers into a new position. Though I see where you're coming from here.
Lets call it this way. When start and end slots of a 0.0 transfer are different, its a fingerswitch. When that slots are the same, its a stall. So for making a fswitch you have to switch fingers, if you want to call it that way. In the example before, you can see that both slots are T1, but still different. So that is a fingerswitch. Otherwise, it would be a stall. And. If the mod rolls, its just a roll. Same with slides. They are different trick. Even thinking that rolls are fingerswitches, in a slide is not necessary.The informal way adds a whole bunch of trick names, which is against what naming conventions attempted to avoid, plus the mirror modifier, which is not a real modifier! It seems to go against at the very least what UPSB's research department has tried to do!
informal method is against UPSBRD... indeed. Informal notation is like the wrong way of notating thing, an easy extract of formal notation, just for people to understand. In informal notation, if you dont know how to notate something, just call it penisaround and done lol In formal notation, we are constantly trying to remove trick names, so the main notation engine is in modifiers, but also keeping it simple for simple things. -
Date: Sun, Jun 9 2013 17:16:31
i dont have to say as much as everyone else but eurocracy this is amazing! I do like the idea!
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Date: Tue, Jun 11 2013 12:46:24
@fel2fram
Hey :) did you read the thread about fingerslots hexbinmos posted in the rd ? (it was called something like sexy super saiyan deathly fingerslots) and it's in french here : http://thefpsb.penspinning.fr/laboratoire/notation-des-fingerslots-le-retour-t11579.html see, the dot is very useful, and is the only way to notate correctly some tricks such as flush sonics. + I'm gonna use the trick "half tipped charge normal" to describe the part of the tipped charge that is CW, like in a pass.Therefore there would be no 'mirrored' transfer, with the obvious path to transferring the pen from one position set to another being taken.
so it's not possible to know which trick you're talking about (normal or opposed rev) if I don't know the position of the pen... What's more, if you have a very small pen, you can do whatever twirl you want at any position x.X(Trans T1-T1.b -> Trans T1.b-T1) + Charge [pol y] T1-T1 1.5
Your notation seems to work. What does "pol y" mean ? But as I specified in my i-o charges videos, there are always two ways to do an i-o charge : with or without fingercrossing. Granted, you just have to add [fx blebleh] when the trick requires a fingercrossing. But with mirrored in-out charges, it gets tricky because none of them really implies the crossing of your fingers, it's just the only way to differentiate them (and I just realised I made a huge mistakes with those : each time there is a mir i-o in my video, there is a fx where there should not and vice-versa). Maybe your "pol y" solves the problem, I don't know.So, we could say that a twirl IS a sonic. Right?
I convinced RPD on skype that it wasn't, end of discussion :snowman2:I feel the motion of a fingerswitch betrays that of a 'transfer' in that the latter is 'rolling' fingers into a new position.
Yeah I agree transfer (bad name though) and fingerswitch should be separated. But as I said above, not giving a wise to your trick makes it very ambiguous. Moreover you're forced to simultaneous it with a tipped charge, so that's not very useful. That's why I suggest this solution : Why not just...allow a tipped charge to change slots ? half tipped charge normal 12-12[fc 12] for example. We could extend that for twirls and so on. But another problem appears : the wise of a twirl (like a wiper) is neither that of a half tipped charge normal, nor that of a half tipped charge reverse. (Maybe you think the contrary, but it's totally arbitrary. There's absolutely no reason to think it's one rather than the other) But there is a solution that would work for every possible trick (even in 2h and so on) : always see the trick from the point of view of the smallest finger (T > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > T'...) That is, you've got to be in front of the tip of the thumb to say if your twirl is a half tipped charge normal or reverse. Here, both normal and opposed are normal tipped charge. At the end it makes : Twirl normal = Half tipped charge normal T.b1 [T>1] - bT.1 [1 > T]plus the mirror modifier, which is not a real modifier!
still more useful than all yo mama did ! :p seriously, mirrored is just the best modifier ever. You thought what we call "inverse flush sonic" really was an INVERSE flush sonic ? Nah. it's just a mirrored reverse, like all the other cool tricks. and look : there are 4 possible symmetries. Time, x, y and z. Respectively reverse, mirrored, moonwalk reverse and inverse. Pretty much a demonstration of how much those modifiers rock, isn't it ?However, I can understand trick names being normal for infomal, but for formal, you claim I don't know what I'm talking about when your knowledge stems from a board written in French and private convos between you and fel. This is not an insult of your knowledge, more so that there is no way I could have possibly known this!
yeah you're right :/ -
Date: Tue, Jun 11 2013 20:57:31
fel2fram wrote: Hey :) did you read the thread about fingerslots hexbinmos posted in the rd ? (it was called something like sexy super saiyan deathly fingerslots) and it's in french here : http://thefpsb.penspinning.fr/laboratoire/notation-des-fingerslots-le-retour-t11579.html see, the dot is very useful, and is the only way to notate correctly some tricks such as flush sonics. + I'm gonna use the trick "half tipped charge normal" to describe the part of the tipped charge that is CW, like in a pass. so it's not possible to know which trick you're talking about (normal or opposed rev) if I don't know the position of the pen... What's more, if you have a very small pen, you can do whatever twirl you want at any position x.X Your notation seems to work. What does "pol y" mean ? But as I specified in my i-o charges videos, there are always two ways to do an i-o charge : with or without fingercrossing. Granted, you just have to add [fx blebleh] when the trick requires a fingercrossing. But with mirrored in-out charges, it gets tricky because none of them really implies the crossing of your fingers, it's just the only way to differentiate them (and I just realised I made a huge mistakes with those : each time there is a mir i-o in my video, there is a fx where there should not and vice-versa). Maybe your "pol y" solves the problem, I don't know. I convinced RPD on skype that it wasn't, end of discussion :snowman2: Yeah I agree transfer (bad name though) and fingerswitch should be separated. But as I said above, not giving a wise to your trick makes it very ambiguous. Moreover you're forced to simultaneous it with a tipped charge, so that's not very useful. That's why I suggest this solution : Why not just...allow a tipped charge to change slots ? half tipped charge normal 12-12[fc 12] for example. We could extend that for twirls and so on. But another problem appears : the wise of a twirl (like a wiper) is neither that of a half tipped charge normal, nor that of a half tipped charge reverse. (Maybe you think the contrary, but it's totally arbitrary. There's absolutely no reason to think it's one rather than the other) But there is a solution that would work for every possible trick (even in 2h and so on) : always see the trick from the point of view of the smallest finger (T > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > T'...) That is, you've got to be in front of the tip of the thumb to say if your twirl is a half tipped charge normal or reverse. Here, both normal and opposed are normal tipped charge. At the end it makes : Twirl normal = Half tipped charge normal T.b1 [T>1] - bT.1 [1 > T] still more useful than all yo mama did ! :p seriously, mirrored is just the best modifier ever. You thought what we call "inverse flush sonic" really was an INVERSE flush sonic ? Nah. it's just a mirrored reverse, like all the other cool tricks. and look : there are 4 possible symmetries. Time, x, y and z. Respectively reverse, mirrored, moonwalk reverse and inverse. Pretty much a demonstration of how much those modifiers rock, isn't it ? yeah you're right :/
To clear up [pol y], it is a part of a video where I restrict charge motions, using a polarised parameter. By doing so, you can formally remove the trick 'tipped charge' and replace it with 'Charge [pol y]' Pol stands for Polarised, by the way, which is the restriction of wave motion to one axis in physics. I also talked in the video about Charge [pol x], which is where the pen oscillates forwards and backwards but not up and down. IMO it makes notating a little smaller and combines my 'new' charge in with it. Moonwalk is deprecated as of the naming community circa 2007 or so. Reverse and inverse are needed by our current notation system and reverse is essential for any. Inverse could be removed but it would require a more complex notation addition. Mirror can be broken down formally, as can moonwalk, therefore it's an 'informal' modifier. Reharding twirls, I recently (today) found out any twirl can be performed in any position with any length of pen, so the pen position does indeed need to be accounted for, you're VERY right. Is there a way I can add you on skype or anything to talk? My skype name is eurocracy2 -
Date: Fri, Jun 14 2013 18:32:37
Reharding twirls, I recently (today) found out any twirl can be performed in any position with any length of pen, so the pen position does indeed need to be accounted for, you're VERY right.
thanks but...your two clauses are contradictory x.X if it can be performed in any position...the pen position IS NOT necessary. It's the trick in itself that must be precisely notated. -
Date: Fri, Jun 14 2013 19:06:58
fel2fram wrote: thanks but...your two clauses are contradictory x.X if it can be performed in any position...the pen position IS NOT necessary. It's the trick in itself that must be precisely notated.
Oh sorry, yes, I slipped up, I did indeed mean that there needs to be two seperate tricks to define which way you are 'rolling' the pen.