UPSB v4

Research Department Feedback / Notation problems - Should breakdowns be this concrete?

  1. RPD
    Date: Sat, Mar 9 2013 23:30:47

    Even thinking that I'm actually a part of RD, I want to ask general opinion (and then, your answers will be the feedback for the RD) [B]Questions:[/B] How would you breakdown this tricks/slots/fingercrosses?

    Spoiler [video=youtube;NoQO91KeYVI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoQO91KeYVI[/video] [video=youtube;ovvVI3Ci_64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovvVI3Ci_64[/video] [video=youtube;nVMyjddlgGI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVMyjddlgGI[/video] [video=youtube;aDOZkKVBpoQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDOZkKVBpoQ[/video] [video=youtube;3KTGP9klm2M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KTGP9klm2M[/video]
    Should breakdowns be this concrete? why? I know that most of this videos are weird as f. But well, I just want to hear what you think.

  2. Xitra
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 00:05:13

    I will call those hooky hold holding actions in the last vid.. hum.. example u use ur middle finger so its 2H... :D Because its hooking so i will call it hook ^^ And as for the one u clamp the pen against ur middle finger, pointer and ring... ill call it clamp :D ( the BD slots 3) I will call it 13C (CLamping on the middle finger "likke sonic") and 2C (Like inverse sonic) i will only right down the fingers that are "clamping down" and for the crosses.. although its the morning and my brain is fuzzy preventing me of thinking of a USE for that... well i notate a cross between a index and a middle (If PD and index is ontop,) 12X, and if PD and middle is on top, 21X For the trick,in the last vid, I would guess (Trick that lands in 2H)~Middlearound Rev 2H-2H~Air Charge 23>Hold in 2H For the BD Slots 2, Clamping against ur ring with thumb.. i would say 3TS. 3- ring T- Thumb S- Spider Because it looks like u are doing a spider spin..... also can be applied to index (2TS) and for clamping ON the thumb WITH the RING, T3S. Just my ideas ^^

  3. RPD
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 00:20:15

    Well, I meant how could we breakdown this with actual notation, new names usually come when it cant be done that way. Anyways, thanks a lot for your comment ^^

  4. Xitra
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 08:49:47

    I am abit unclear about what "Breaking down with actual notation" as u said, means...does it mean to modify a certain thing with notations so much that it becomes like what u have showed above ? O_O Challenging. Well I think breakdowns need to be this concrete cos..."we can't leave a trick left and "un notated"/unnamed".... Would also provide alot of convenience..

  5. Mats
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 10:44:05

    Xitra wrote: Well I think breakdowns need to be this concrete cos..."we can't leave a trick left and "un notated"/unnamed"....
    I think not only can we leave tricks unnotated or unnamed, we will have to. The number of possible tricks with a pen is enormous and it's just not going to be possible to describe everything possible without resorting to complex mathematics.

  6. Xitra
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 13:03:15

    Shall we resort to complex mathematics? Pen spinning is limitless :O We ARE proggressing and one day a generation of pen spinners might have to notate that. Or we can help them.. XD Should we go that far? O_o

  7. Mats
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 13:43:29

    Xitra wrote: Shall we resort to complex mathematics? o
    No.

  8. RPD
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 13:59:28

    Well, this was a kinda tricky post. Fingercrossing 1, slots 3 and trick 1 can be "easily" notated with actual concepts, but it seems like no one knows them or how to use them :P Anyone knows? I hope so (sun)

  9. shoeman6
    Date: Sun, Mar 10 2013 14:00:04

    The goal of notation sshouldbe tomake something like that easier to understand. I agree with RPD but current notation falls apart when describing complex tricks

  10. RPD
    Date: Mon, Mar 11 2013 18:17:02

    I agree with that. The goal of notation is making complex tricks easier to understand. But I also think that there is a big misinformation and lack of interest when learning new ways of notation. For example. When we all started psing, notation was like WTF is going out there. [B]After a little study[/B] (i dont think that anyone actually spent hours and hours studying how to notate a combo :/ ) we could understand simple bds, and after some weeks, more complex ones. I think that learning how to breakdown a combo helped almost every pser, maybe I'm wrong.

    current notation falls apart when describing complex tricks
    And if actual notation doesnt improve [B]with a community feedback[/B], not only a few ppl, breakdowns wont evolve. And when that few people use "the new concepts they invented" , the rest of the community [B]just dont understand![/B] because they never learnt that. They will keep saying that it's too complicated, and we should leave it how it is. Progress is always a good thing ;) Also. If you can solve equations (I bet you can), why not a breakdown? (sun)

  11. Xitra
    Date: Tue, Mar 12 2013 09:30:44

    :mellow:So is notation progressing? WILL it progress anymore? Example of "Complex Trick that can't be described by current notation"? So does notation have a limit? D: So... example of abstract trick described by extreme notation pls? :D

  12. ChainBreak
    Date: Tue, Mar 12 2013 13:08:07

    If we want to make changes to the notation it's okay if only a few people start it. After all new notation in language and sciences are not waiting for the population to accept the request for a change. People are lazy and a change woupd mean learning something new so people will always try to prevent changes.

  13. RPD
    Date: Tue, Mar 12 2013 14:42:12

    This is the amazing progress (and mostly unknown) of notation. Enjoy :) If any of the authors of each concept is wrong, please say it. [B]FPSB[/B] - Phalanx Notation by [B]τ[/B]

    SpoilerFingers 1-4 are constituted by 3 phalanxes (x, y and z), thumb only by 2 (x and y) Also, where 2 phalanxes join, can be xy or yz in fingers 1-4 and xy in thumb. For example, for middle finger, instead of only one slot (2) now we have (2, 2x, 2y, 2z, 2xy, 2yz)
    [B]NO POST [/B]- Slots in equilibrium
    SpoilerWhen the pen is held by several fingers, but not completely, so its in equilibrium. This can be notated with an asterisk *, that goes after the full slot. For example (2*, 3*, 1234*)
    [B]SPSC[/B] and [B]FPSB[/B] - Slot notation relative to the pen by [B]fel2fram[/B]
    SpoilerA dot separates both sides, left and right characters are the fingers on each. To know the order of the fingers, we have two ways: For right-handed → In PU, clockwise. For left-handed → In PU, counterclockwise. The slot should always be separated into two sides (no "3.42.1") It is preferable that the first side contains the most important finger in the hierarchy (H > P > T > 1 > 4 etc...). The fingers in each sides aren't sorted as regular slots. For example, 31.2 and 13.2 are different slots (in the last, 1 and 3 are crossed)
    [B]SPSC[/B] - Advanced fingercrossing notation by [B]freeman[/B] and [B]kurotsuki[/B]
    Spoiler Actual fc notation is just writing the crossed fingers like [fc 12] after the trick. This advanced notation says that, the finger that is on top is written before the rest of the fingers. This is easier to understand with examples: Actual notation : IA [fc 12] IA rev [fc 12] Advanced notation : IA [fc 21] IA rev [fc 12] When crossing multiple fingers : RA 123 [fc 312] IA [fc 21 43] If this is combined with formal notation, we can specify when the fingers are crossed : IMA 13-12 [p 3 fc 21] [c 12] or IMA 13-12 [p 3] [fc 21] [s] [c 12] IMA 23-13 [p 3] [c 13 fc 21] or IMA 23-13 [p 3] [c 13] [fc 21] IMA 23-23 [p 3] [s fc 21] [c 23] or IMA 23-23 [p 3] [s] [fc 21] [c 23]

  14. Mats
    Date: Tue, Mar 12 2013 15:05:47

    I like that fingercross thing at the bottom. Seems to be the most simple way to add fingercrossing to the advanced notation?

  15. Xitra
    Date: Wed, Mar 13 2013 07:41:35

    Wow... that progress IS really unknown O_O If people will try to prevent changes...:excited: Doesn't that mean notation won't change? And it won't progress? This is confusing O_o"

  16. RPD
    Date: Wed, Mar 13 2013 16:57:49

    its not confusing.

    Doesn't that mean notation won't change? And it won't progress?
    Notation IS changing, and what I said up there are some of the simplest improvements. If @Mats finally writes the notation book (you were going to write it, right? :P) that can make this changes more popular. Or at least, we tried -.-'

  17. Mats
    Date: Wed, Mar 13 2013 18:57:05

    RPD wrote: If Mats finally writes the notation book (you were going to write it, right? :P) that can make this changes more popular. Or at least, we tried -.-'
    What? Was I? I guess I better make a start then... ;)

  18. Xitra
    Date: Thu, Mar 14 2013 08:02:55

    The notation book is going to be on UPSB wiki, right? So what can happen to prevent the changes from being unpopular? D: can't think of any... Let's think of some MORE flaws in notation... :D Try to make notation as good as possible

  19. RPD
    Date: Thu, Mar 14 2013 10:58:32

    Xitra, i recommend you reading fpsb' laboratoire. There are lots of interesting concepts there :)

  20. hoiboy
    Date: Sun, Mar 17 2013 05:05:05

    UPSB's research hasn't been very active in notation. Last I checked, notating things was really unofficial - the idea of "official" notation has pretty much gone down the drain. The concept of "official" notation was developed back before all this crazy stuff developed, where you could recreate combos from just the notation itself. However, things have progressed to the point (palm up/down, fingercrossing, pen position relative to the hand) where notating to recreate the combo is too complex to be any useful.

  21. Ceru Seiyu
    Date: Thu, Mar 28 2013 21:17:44

    You can't really learn tricks by notation anymore, it becomes so confusing that a video suffices. Is there even a use for notation any more?

  22. RPD
    Date: Fri, Mar 29 2013 00:18:16

    Is there even a use for notation any more?
    The same uses as before. I use it almost everyday to save links and search for trick variations faster. I dont know if people prefer to notate complex links as "Then 1 is folded, and while the pen is held in antigravity position in 23, you pass it to..." and stuff. 5+5 is the same as 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1, but if no one wants to learn what "5" means, because only knowing "1" is easier, then, worse for them. I think ~.~

  23. Tommy
    Date: Tue, Apr 9 2013 05:01:23

    Yes, yes it should, no real point changing it now, most people have gotten used to it

  24. RaM
    Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 06:03:26

    its more of learning by watching than thinking trick notations.