UPSB v4
Research Department Feedback / Inverse or moonwalk TA?
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Date: Sun, Feb 10 2013 21:32:57
I originally came up with this with opposite spin (moonwalk) in mind. The video may not have been processed yet as youtube is slow but this is the trick I am referring to: [video=youtube;7hbQZk5dXcI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hbQZk5dXcI[/video] As you can see it is not merely a shadow as it drops under the thumb like a TA rev should. I believe that as it had a counterclockwise spin and went along the path of a TA rev it was a moonwalk TA. However, some other explanations are: Inverse - As it starts on the other side of the hand FL sonic T1-T1? Was suggested to make a thread here by Mats after I used this trick in my battle vs Pixels
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Date: Sun, Feb 10 2013 22:20:20
for me it says the video is unavailible, i am in the u.s.a.
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Date: Sun, Feb 10 2013 22:24:55
Cant watch it either
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Date: Sun, Feb 10 2013 22:25:06
if you go to the actual page, it says the video is being processed. give it a couple of hours
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Date: Sun, Feb 10 2013 23:05:17
Can't watch it yet.
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Date: Mon, Feb 11 2013 01:17:23
im in Malaysia, cant watch it :(
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Date: Mon, Feb 11 2013 02:19:04
what was that???
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Date: Mon, Feb 11 2013 03:14:50
I don't know man... looks to be more like a shadow to me. It's like you could call a shadow 23-12~>pass (rev?) 12-23 an inverse or moonwalk middle around
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Date: Mon, Feb 11 2013 18:17:20
Pen Ninja wrote: I don't know man... looks to be more like a shadow to me. It's like you could call a shadow 23-12~>pass (rev?) 12-23 an inverse or moonwalk middle around
Well it's not a pass because it's not pushed by fingers, it just drops into place, like an around. Maybe FL around? -
Date: Mon, Feb 11 2013 23:46:46
sorry, looking at the number of spins more closely, it's more of a sonic TF-T ~> [B]FL[/B] inverse sonic rev T-TF It's an odd thing to explain because there's no solid finger slot after TF but when the next move is fingerless, should it really matter? Do the same trick out of 23 and you should see it. forget what you're used to sonic and inverse sonic looking like, focus on the core concept of the trick. 1.0 revolutions behind or in front of the finger(s) in the middle of the trick. sonic 23-12 ~> fl inverse sonic rev 12-23 goes behind 2, gets into 12 for a very short time then drops immediately in front 2 and back into 23. This trick could be done entirely without an index finger... why is this trick any different. It goes from Tf, behind T and into
then immediately drops in front of T and into TF. It's the exact same description with different finger slots. [video=youtube;Nye6z24ZLSU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nye6z24ZLSU&feature=youtu.be[/video] PS is always hard to explain. With people trying to think up new tricks all the time, you need to think outside the box. Just because you're used to sonic looking how it does, doesnt mean that's what the trick is... the trick is what it's defined to be and if you used it in a way that looks different, you've got a sonic that looks different, not a new trick. edit: sorry to be so blunt and seem like an asshole =\ I have to hurry to work :P -
Date: Tue, Feb 12 2013 14:03:22
Interesting. Although it isn't a new trick in itself, it's definitely some kind of hybrid (the notation is quite unobvious as to what it is). Should it be given to the naming committee to be made a hybrid? Just for the sake of removing confusion in breakdowns. (Also, something else to note, the sonics share the charge motion, so each actually has 0.5 of a rotation rather than it being like two sonics doing a total of 2.0 revolutions this does 1.0 revolutions. Coincidentally this is something that exists only with 0.5 arounds and passes, suggesting the trick could be more like an around motion.)
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Date: Wed, Feb 13 2013 23:37:56
ahah... I knew someone would bring up the fact that the inverse sonic rev (just realised I didnt have the 'rev' bit in the previous post, updated now). This bit really is weird, I've experimented with leaving out the charge before inv sonic (normal or rev) and it tends to happen like this. Just do sonic 23-12 > inverse sonic rev 12-23 WITHOUT the fingerless-ness and it's still possible, just feels odd. I dont know about giving it a name... I'm not a big fan of creating names where they're not necessary. The only reason I accept thinks like demon sonic and devils around is because those terms have been around longer than I have. If we give names to every new variation of a trick, that can be notated normally, we'll lose track REALLY quickly. I dont want breakdowns turning into "Menowa trick > Peem sonic > pinky demon twisted sonic > Pen Ninja trick > reverse Yamaguchi > supernova > indexmiddle eriror-around" Bad example but just consider, if we gave every new hybrid or similar a different name, we'd have sooo many names for things that dont need it. Breakdowns would be much cleaner without all the fingerslots and revolutions but you'd have to remember so many names it wouldnt be worth it.
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Date: Thu, Feb 14 2013 19:50:46
Well, I watched the video and tried it many times and changed my mind several times. First I treated it as Palm Down FL TA, but it has a Shadow motion. Then FingerLess Shadow 1.0 T1-T1 was an option, but the movement is tricky. So a possibility is to view it as a Palm Down Thumbspin 1.0, or to use simultaneous notation, then I would notate it as FL Shadow 1.0 + TA (PD).
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Date: Thu, Feb 14 2013 20:22:49
So let's do this logically... There are some basic spin types in pen spinning: Around, spin, through-spin, conic, roll, pass, aerial... Let's first work out which spin type this could fit into So first of all: Aerial, pass and roll are all eliminated, as it does not fit the definition of these clearly and straight away. So we are left with: Around, spin, through-spin, conic. We can also eliminate through-spin, since the pen is not being held and then eliminate around, as the pen does not actually go around the thumb in this trick. This leaves us with conic and spin. Neither conic or spin can be truely eliminated here, so after a careful watching of the trick, what do you guys think to this description? The pen starts in T1, so we have a starting slot and finishes in the same slot, so it's definitely going to be:
T1-T1 The pen then makes a conic type spin for 0.5 of a revolution, until it sits on top of the thumb. It then spins for 0.25 of a rotation on the thumb, before the fingers are opened and the pen allowed to drop in the catching slot, as one would at the end of a normal thumbspin. The spin is always counter-clockwise, so here I think we have to say the trick looks like: Charge Normal 0.5 ~ Thumspin Reverse 0.5 What do you think? Edit: Edited because I did everything from a left hander's point of view for the spin directions. It's more sensible to do RH. -
Date: Thu, Feb 14 2013 21:39:39
I think that it's the best bd at the moment. [SIZE="1"]I would just add 90 new modifiers lololol[/SIZE] For me, it would be Charge Reverse T1 ~ Thumspin Normal 0.5 But the problem is that, with both breakdowns, we can think of two tricks. The one that eurocracy did, and something similar to an spiderspin (without doing the kinda TA movement) So, if we dont want any doubt, it could be Charge Reverse T1 [p] ~ Thumspin Normal 0.5 [s] ~ TA rev tf [c] or maybe just Charge Reverse T1 ~ Thumspin Normal ~ TA rev tf [c] This is what I said in the NC post. For notating a "simple" trick, we need to hybrid 2, or 3, and it can be really confusing... extra modifiers are confusing too.
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Date: Thu, Feb 14 2013 22:27:49
RPD wrote: But the problem is that, with both breakdowns, we can think of two tricks. The one that eurocracy did, and something similar to an spiderspin (without doing the kinda TA movement)
What is this other trick? Could you film it? -
Date: Thu, Feb 14 2013 22:55:46
RPD wrote: Charge Reverse T1 [p] ~ Thumbspin Normal 0.5 [s] ~ TA rev tf [c]
I suppose you both meant Charge Normal T1. Anyways, I don't see the final ~TA Rev TF. That would mean that the pen switches direction? -
Date: Thu, Feb 14 2013 23:04:24
The final Ta nor/rev 0.0 [c] is only to indicate the trajectory/path
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Date: Sat, Feb 16 2013 18:53:00
I think RPD has nailed this.
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Date: Sat, Feb 16 2013 19:08:41
It's actually a Thumbspin Reverse. The catch of a Thumbspin is the same as the catch of a TA by default, so why add the Thumbaround Reverse? Do you think capitalizing trick names in discussions involving a lot of them is a good idea? i.e. Does it make pen spinning quicker to read? inverse indexmiddlearound normal vs Inverse Indexmiddlearound Normal.
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Date: Sat, Feb 16 2013 22:11:05
It's actually a Thumbspin Reverse.
This is one of my weak points, but I think its a TS nor. The spin direction is the same as TA nor. Anyway, its true that one of the last [c] is not needed. I didnt thought about that. So maybe: Charge 0.5 T1 [p] ~ Thumbspin Normal 0.5 [s] ~ TA rev 0.0 tf [c] Charge 0.5 T1 [p] ~ Thumbspin Normal 0.5 [s] [c] About capitalizing. Normally, I put arounds and hand position modifiers in caps and abbreviated, but sometimes I forget. Inverse Indexmiddlearound Normal vs inverse IMA nor Its quicker to read and understand IMO. -
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2013 22:41:59
Does everyone agree on Charge 0.5 T1 [p] ~ Thumbspin Normal 0.5 [s] [c] ? And if so, then notation is all looking fine. And yeah it's a TS Normal. I keep looking at my LEFT HAND and then thinking "but thumbspins are the other way". :facepalm:
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Date: Sun, Feb 17 2013 10:59:23
The trick that I did includes the ~ TA rev 0.0 tf [c], if you don't have that, it's not going around the back of the thumb.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17 2013 11:12:22
eurocracy wrote: The trick that I did includes the ~ TA rev 0.0 tf [c], if you don't have that, it's not going around the back of the thumb.
Did you not read our posts? :? -
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2013 13:37:23
[B]Eurocracy TA:[/B] Charge 0.5 T1 [p] ~ Thumbspin Normal 0.5 [s] ~ TA rev 0.0 tf [c] [B]Other TA breakdown:[/B] Charge 0.5 T1 [p] ~ Thumbspin Normal 0.5 [s] [c] I suppose that Mats was saying that if we all agree in second bd, this thread is closed.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17 2013 14:32:16
Just because a TS by default assumes the same catch as a TA.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17 2013 21:14:10
I agree with RPD here, not sure which trick Mats is talking about above. Nevermind I'm dumb, this is all good, that's all cleared up now.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17 2013 21:50:03
The second trick you did, RPD, is effectively just a t1 shadow though..
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 09:39:00
Iota wrote: The second trick you did, RPD, is effectively just a t1 shadow though..
It's not a shadow if it doesn't occur on top of the fingers, it's a different topsin, instead you have a thumbspin here -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 11:25:36
eurocracy wrote: It's not a shadow if it doesn't occur on top of the fingers, it's a different topsin, instead you have a thumbspin here
What he said is correct. ^^ -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 16:13:17
ah okay, didn't see that it only went on the thumb. Honestly though, at least for that case, I think it's unnecessary to try to create some sort of new hybrid to notate that. The first one is understandable and is probably doable via use of modifiers, but the second one is really a trivial difference between a t1 shadow and a t1 charge ~ thumbspin .5 T-t1. I mean, that would mean that if someone executes a shadow, say in 12, but happens to have their index raise up a bit and have the pen spin there, we'd need to classify that differently than simply shadow 12-12, only because it just happened to spin purely on the index finger. Also, doing something like that would cause overlap with what shadows are themselves too, since really this is true: shadow AB-AB = charge AB ~ AB spin .5 AB-AB My proposal is that you simply think of it (the first trick, the one euro showed originally) a bit differently, and it's then not very hard to break down given our current notation, I think. Consider the following example: FL sonic T1-PT ~ FL fingerswitch TP-T1. It isn't elegant and it isn't very intuitive, but I believe it's valid. I include the second part rather than just writing FL sonic t1-t1 because it better explains the way in which it's conical, and because in general the way that these would be use are more akin to just the first section, i.e. sonics from a fingerslot to a palm+finger(s) slot.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 17:02:36
You can't have a T1 shadow because the definition of Shadow requires it to be spinning on the back of the fingers. Spinning on the thumb is a Thumbspin. I also think if people did a Shadow and raised the index finger up, it would easily be explained by Shadow 12-12 ~ Indexspin? Also, FL sonic T1-PT ~ FL fingerswitch TP-T1 doesn't seem to describe this trick at all and I don't see the problem with Charge ~ TS? :?
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 17:11:39
lol, a thumbspin spins on the back of the thumb, just like a shadow spins on the back of whatever finger involved in it. There is no problem with charge~TS, but it's literally what a shadow is, via the wiki: "This is a trick where the palm is facing down. The pen starts at any finger slot (usually 12) and does 0.5 rotations in the charge position before traveling up to the top of the hand. The pen should revolve 0.5 times on top of your fingers. As it nears the end of the 0.5 revolutions on top, slowly lift any of your fingers to catch the pen (usually the index finger to catch it in the 12 slot). At the end, a final 0.5 revolutions of charge should end the trick. Doing a total of 1.5 revolutions." Unless you have the sloppiest shadows ever, it doesn't spin on the back of ALL of your fingers, lol....just the two, or one of the two, usually, fingers that started the shadow. So shadow 12 is essentially charge 12 ~ indexmiddlespin .5 12-12, or charge 12 ~ indexspin .5 1-12, or charge 12 ~ middlespin .5 2-12. Charge t1 ~ Thumbspin .5 T-t1 is just a way to do a t1 shadow, except with the pen spinning on the back of the thumb i.e. thumbspin .5instead of the more common indexspin .5 or thumbindex spin .5 Also, that breakdown actually does describe the trick, it's the exact same breakdown proposed by euro originally (FL sonic t1-t1) except with less ambiguity as to how the pen moves, it's just a different way to break it down than what you're used to, so you're jumping to the conclusion that it's wrong with no evidence as to why it fails to explicitly break down the motion of the pen.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 17:11:47
With FL sonic T1-PT ~ FL fingerswitch TP-T1 it happens the same as with Charge NORMAL T1 ~ Thumspin Normal 0.5 It can notate the 2 tricks I did in my video. I dont like adding lots of hybrids when they are not necessary, but if we dont want any doubt, thats what we can do. (Or adding modifiers meh :P )
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2013 17:19:54
you mean charge normal t1 though ;D haha, but yeah it's the same thing either way, the reason I provided this one: FL sonic T1-PT ~ FL fingerswitch TP-T1 is that in general, the use for doing tricks like this will be found most commonly without the fl fingerswitch back to the original slot, as it's tough to do without a sort of swively/palm motion after catching in a palm+finger slot. Also, just "Charge Reverse T1 ~ Thumspin Normal 0.5" is enough to explain the second trick you did without much ambiguity, but not eurocracy's very well as you need to explain that though it is caught back in t1, it goes under the thumb before this. You'll most commonly see just the first part without it going back into the finger slot, and so I think the breakdown explaining the first section minus the t1 catch as "FL sonic T1-PT" will be most useful in the general case.
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Date: Sun, Jul 6 2014 14:10:08
the trick is kinda similar to the thumbflap shadow ( see SuperVValrus' tutorial if u haven't heard of it)
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Date: Thu, Jul 10 2014 22:30:39
AfroSquared wrote: the trick is kinda similar to the thumbflap shadow ( see SuperVValrus' tutorial if u haven't heard of it)
Well we were talking about shadows last year when we were discussing it. This thread is over a year old xD (Which we concluded it wasn't) The guys in the research forum don't need to be told to watch a SuperVValrus tutorial though, pretty much everyone here is advanced level. -
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2014 11:45:05
Ceru Seiyu wrote: The guys in the research forum don't need to be told to watch a SuperVValrus tutorial though, pretty much everyone here is advanced level.
Lmao -
Date: Mon, Aug 25 2014 17:42:06
Harsh.
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Date: Tue, Aug 26 2014 14:28:05
MPC wrote: Harsh.
Stop bumping relics