UPSB v4
General Discussion / What Makes A Trick Hard?
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 16:20:57
What makes a trick hard? What makes 50 Hai Tua's harder than a Thumbaround. @eurocracy Seems simple to figure, think about it carefully and post your replies here. What do you think?
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 16:24:22
The amount of practice time required to master a trick. Its gonna take someone a lot longer to learn to do 50 hai tuas compared to learning thumbaround
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 16:24:38
also simple = easy or simple =/= easy
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 16:42:32
We look at this: trick1, trick2 trick1 requires a certain amount of control to execute correctly. trick2 also requires a certain amount of control to execute correctly. If the amount of control that is required for correct execution for trick1 is greater than the control required for correct execution of trick2, then trick1 is harder than trick2. About control and amounts: Control in penspinning is the ability to move the pen according to the will of the penspinner. Earlier I wrote about "amounts" of control. This is a simplified term for a nonexisting value for control. Because control is such an abstract term a value for control would need to be just as abstract. This would require a lot of thinking so to simplify the value of control the word "amount" was used.
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 16:43:55
I hate this question, it's not simple at all. I personally believe that it has to do with complexity[B]¹[/B], which is described as "In general usage, complexity tends to be used to characterize something with many parts in intricate arrangement". Every single penspinning trick has a vast amount of complexity that we force our brains to learn and do all the work for us. This is what we call Muscle Memory[B]²[/B] and it is what allows you to do penspinning combos, because otherwise your brain would not be able to keep up past the first couple of finger movements and you'd drop your pen. It is based on repetition and is not constant as we can see with penspinning tricks. Some tricks are far easy to learn than others, such as the thumbaround in contrast to the hai tua. Or in another case I will expand upon, one hai tua versus fifty hai tuas. So, let's think about the thumbaround, seems pretty easy, no? Well, remember how it took you hours to learn it, you probably no longer think of it as complicated now but as this simple breakdown:
Push pen with finger -> Catch
But in reality it's much more complicated:Assert pen into correct hold and position on the hand -> Apply the correct force for the finger being used (varies between index, middle, ring and pinky) -> maintain the thumb's position at all times, overcoming the natural instinct to move it -> bring back the used finger to push the pen -> Extend out the index finger or the finger needed to catch the pen -> After the precise timing depending on the force applied, the finger used, the weight of the pen and the size of the operators hand, close the two fingers firmly enough to catch it
Sounds much more complicated, doesn't it. That's why it takes so long to learn in the beginning. I don't even want to break down the hai tua like that, it would take up something like a page. Things to keep into consideration when I broke it down into complex terms is timing and force, and with other tricks you have to also rely on balance and control. This is what make continuous tricks hard. When you take all these factors into account, you could probably make a difficulty scale for each trick/linkage/combo depending on these factors:-
[*]Number of stages
[*]Stages which require fine balance (Maintaining the pen in a certain area, such as in topspins like sidespin)
[*]Stages which apply force (FL force is included)
[*]Stages which need control (for example thumb staying still with thumbaround)
[*]Stages which need enhanced flexibility (Fingercross, flush sonic)
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 17:39:57
Complicated tricks are tricks that your brain need to adjust to for a long time. That's why when you keep doing the same movement your brain remembers what muscles to use.
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 20:24:41
Practicing.
-
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2013 23:48:18
Rated by difficulty
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 03:30:41
but different people learn the same tricks/linkages at different rates, ideally you could collect data from a lot of people about their experiences...so a 'true' assessment of difficulty between higher-level stuff is generally very hard to achieve about the learning/practice times, that doesn't really work as a way of assessment in some cases, ofc, since i learned cont pd fl ta x5 (in solo) in way less time than i learnt normal fl ta x 5 (because normal fl ta's i trained when i was < 1 year, and pd fl ta when i was ~ 5 years)...once a good understanding of pen and finger positioning+control has been achieved, learning more things becomes a lot easier, which 'invalidates' assessments of difficulty using training time unless the tricks compared are learnt at comparable levels of experience
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 05:33:11
eurocracy wrote: Therefore complicated tricks = hard tricks
In that case, simple = easy, but... for example, bust x100 is conceptually simple, but not easy Also if you want to talk about trick complexity itself, bust is just moving the hand/finger a bit to one side, so is actually simple but not necessarily easy. In the case u start talking about, timing, hand adjustment, etc.. you are starting to talk about hard/easy and not really about trick complexity, and you make TA seems complex, so there isnt really simple tricks at all? -
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 07:56:41
Surely you dont need an answer, the answer is common sence.
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 08:25:37
*sense
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 08:40:00
Difficulty pretty much comes from a trick demanding more of something from you than another trick. that thing could be something like: -odd hand movements -stretchy fingers -specific timing on your movements [B]but most importantly[/B] -Precision Just think of how lazy you can be with a TA, your finger movements dont need to be precise at all. you can do the sloppiest TA every but it'll work. Now think of hai tua, think of how specific your hand movements need to be. If you dont move your hand and fingers correctly it's not going to work and there's a much more strict specific movement and timing for hai tua than there is TA so you have to be much more precise about it. I believe that need for precision is the main factor in difficulty... the fact that you have less room for error and such.
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 08:50:59
What also makes a trick hard is the slot where you the trick.For example:its harder to do an ia than a ra,becose we have index and middle finger more developed than pinky finger.The same thing happends with back/pinkyback,etc.
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 09:02:19
somewhat relates to much post. it's more difficult to be as precise as you need to be... not because you need to be more precise than the same trick in another slot... but because it's physically harder to make the necessary movements with those fingers
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 09:31:47
if you cant do it, it's hard for you.
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 12:45:59
What Makes A Trick Hard? ans:your hand
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 13:53:39
I think trick difficulty comes down to 4 main things -> Speed, accuracy, position and time. As stated before, the TA is an easy trick. This trick is also slow, requires low accuracy to land and is positioned on the strongest part (index finger and thumb) of the hand. Pinky around is harder, as even though the speed required is the same and the accuracy is basically the same, the position is awful, forcing your two weakest fingers to execute and land the trick. A Thumbspin 1.5 is not very hard, but a Thumbspin 7.5 is very hard. Each trick uses the same position and accuracy, however, a TS 7.5 is faster and so needs quicker corrections and is also longer than a TS 1.5, so time and speed difficulty are increased. A very hard trick, would push all 4 things. So, we look to a trick in a bad hand position, requiring good accuracy, that is fast and long. Some good candidates here would be: Multiple rotation inverse thumbspin - An awkward position for the hand and requiring good accuracy to get into, but then also lasting a long time and being a fast trick. Multiple thumbspin transfer (i.e. Starting a thumbspin and moving it across to the other thumb, where it continues to spin) - A very awkward swop to do, again requiring decent accuracy and the multiple spins adding in the time and speed factor. Ringaround reverse release 6.5 34-14 - A tricky position to lauch from and the 6.5 rotations taking some very good accuracy. The speed of the rotation making the trick very difficult to catch in the horrible 14 slot. A low 6.5 rotations leaves little time to catch it in, but doing a higher release, giving more time, increases the accuracy required. Points to anyone who can do the above 3 tricks, especially the last two.
-
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2013 14:45:24
The answer is,because u r a noob