UPSB v4
Advanced Tricks / active and passive learning[!!warning!! long text]
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 13:30:04
So I had this discussion with Timbo on SB and I felt the need to share this with everyone. It's about how you learn tricks and what you do to learn them. I personally knew from the moment I started penspinning that I wouldn't have much time to spin, because school would take too much of my time. When I started I still invested a lot of time in learning tricks, trying to do the exact movement that would make me land the trick. So I was actively trying to learn the trick and spend hours and hours to get the muscle memory to execute the tricks. However by doing so I found it hard later on to do combos, because I only knew how to do the tricks in the one specific way I learned them. I had to force myself to continue motions where I usually stopped and stop movements when I used to continued them. This was of course very hard and time consuming and when I didn't have the time to put into it anymore I felt I didn't improve for a long time. In fact I didn't deal with penspinning for some time at all, because I simply lacked time, but also because of skinrash I had on my hand and fingers that prevented me from learning actively. So over the time I didn't have much to do with penspinning at all and just watched videos now and then. But that was the time I found later to be the time I improved the most. When the skinrash started to get better and I could spin again I was suddenly able to do tricks and linkages I never practiced before. I could even do them without any thinking, they just ''flowed'' out of my fingers like natural movements. At around that time I started thinking about how to learn something, because before the only way I knew was constant practice. So after spending some time on research about this topic I found out that even if I didn't do any actual practice at all my brain would process the information on the movements I saw and by understanding the core principle of the tricks execution I was able to do what I saw before. It's not like I would just look at every trick and linkage then and I would be able to do them. For some it was the case, but for most it wasn't, because I simply lacked the physical ability to control the pen in a way that was so unusual for me. But after watching videos and looking closely at the tricks and linkages I always felt inspired to learn the tricks. I tried once or twice and when I failed I just stopped trying to force the movements. I then just continued to do the tricks and linkages I already knew. After some days, weeks or months, depending on the trick/linkage I found myself doing what I had tried to do and failed to do the first couple of times. Here one example: After trying to learn the flushsonic for some time I felt like it was impossible to do. But after stretching my fingers for a couple of months even without doing the exact flushsonic movement I was able to execute it almost perfectly during freestyling. During that time I still didn't know a lot about linkages so I was just happy doing the trick itself. Another more recent example: I first watched kin's linkage of palm up charge ~ spiderspin about a year ago. A couple of days ago I did just that link, even though I didn't try doing it for about 9 months. From then on I didn't spend a lot of time actively doing active practice on penspinning, but I just looked at tricks and linkages to discover I could do them after some time of not practicing that specific trick or link. So I am now still doing this. I just watch some videos and try to pay attention the the tricks and linkages and after some time I find myself doing tricks I didn't actively practice. Also I found that I was able to link tricks I learned that way very easily into my other tricks and linkages. And I didn't only do this at penspinning. Even in table tennis which I played for a couple of years I found myself doing strokes I had seen once or twice in a video of a pro match, of course not with the same speed, spin and placement, but I could do stuff I never practiced. Of course that's not the case with all the movements I see. I just lack the physical ability for some strokes or the rubber on my bat just behaves in a completely different manner that won't allow me to do the same movements. But even then I find myself doing similar movements that fit to my physical ability and the racket I'm using. I'm able to do movements cut to own physics and my own ability, even if I never spend time actively learning them. [B]I just watched and copied. This is what humans have always done and always do. It's a ability everyone has. You just need the patience to give your brain enough time to figure out the movements and alter them to fit your own body.[/B] tl;dr: Passive learning > active learning, because passively learned movements are cut to your own body and you can use them more naturally.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 13:41:03
[B]WARNING: [/b] Above post is almost entirely incorrect.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 13:44:29
Mats wrote: [B]WARNING: [/b] Above post is almost entirely incorrect.
It's my own experience with learning. How is it incorrect? -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 14:13:21
ChainBreak wrote: It's my own experience with learning. How is it incorrect?
Let's consider some things:Passive learning > active learning
This would mean, someone who sat and watched snooker for 6 hours a day, would be better than someone who went and practiced snooker for 6 hours a day. Do you think this is true? My personal experience of people who actually get very good at things: From a concert pianist I took lessons under - He said he practiced so much in his youth, that he didn't even get his first friend until he was in his 20s, as the number of hours he did were so much, he had no time for anything else. From an acquaintance violinist - One of the top violists in the Birmingham conservatoire. Practices for six hours a day. Anthony Gatto - Best juggler in the world - Said he practice some 7 hours a day for most days for most of his life. Daniel Eaker - Until injured, possibly the fastest improving juggler ever. Made it to almost world class level in under 4 years. - I spoke to him online about this. He said a minimal practice day was 3-5 hours and that he sometimes did as much as 14 hours a day practice. Top gymnasts claim to spend around 5-6 hours a week practicing. Also, take a look at things like this: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/acp.1106/abstract Which contains quotes such as:Chess players at the highest skill level (i.e. grandmasters) expended about 5000 hours on serious study alone during their first decade of serious chess play—nearly five times the average amount reported by intermediate-level players
It's interesting to note that in these varied fields, there is no-one who sits watching other people do things, they are all doing the skills themselves, for vast amounts of hours. I'm going to go right out there and say the fastest and best way to learn pen spinning, is to practice things time and time again, thinking all the time about why they went right or wrong and actively trying to make corrections to your technique. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 14:21:20
Are you just plain stupid or didn't you read properly? I learned skills faster after I already had the basic skills and control down. I didn't just go and spin combos without any practice. A experienced piano player will be able to play easy songs almost instantly without knowing them before, because he already has the experience with playing piano and has a basic skillset that allows him to use his abilities in a way he hasn't before if it is within the range of his abilities. If a piano player has already mastered several mozart pieces, but didn't learn ''Mary had a little lamb'' even once and never attempted to play it do you think he would be able to play it if he reads the notes? edit: Here more to this: I can already do the fundamentals freely. Now most advanced tricks can be broken down to be a combination of these fundamentals. Now if I learned a advanced trick of a certain complexity I can learn tricks of similar complexity without spending time on actively learning the trick, because I can control the pen to this amount of complexity. btw: I think analysing and understanding a text is what they teach in school and it's ability that you are free to use. Then do so and try to understand before you just go writing your very first thoughts.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 14:29:32
Tricks i learn passively, without watching tutorials, is easier for me than tricks i learnt actively.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 14:34:52
You both seem to misunderstand the word 'passive'. :facepalm:
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 14:43:29
Well I do not practice a movement and I don't spend time thinking about it, I only watch it and I'm still able to mimic the movement. For me that is passive learning.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:00:07
You simply apply what you already know to do something made up of it, that's not learning in any way, just using what you already know. It's not a way of improving your skills, you can't do anything truly 'new' with it. Also you're being incredibly childish talking down to Mats like that, he's on the research team and I'm sure he knows exactly what he's talking about, you can stop acting so butthurt
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:05:20
An OP is not an authoritative source, just because its written doesn't mean its right, he is arguing against the main point of that post. The more focused you are in practice the faster you get results. You gotta do more research and have a better argument if you want such a claim made in your first post to be taken seriously otherwise its just misinformed conjecture.
ChainBreak wrote: Are you just plain stupid or didn't you read properly? I learned skills faster after I already had the basic skills and control down. I didn't just go and spin combos without any practice. A experienced piano player will be able to play easy songs almost instantly without knowing them before, because he already has the experience with playing piano and has a basic skillset that allows him to use his abilities in a way he hasn't before if it is within the range of his abilities. If a piano player has already mastered several mozart pieces, but didn't learn ''Mary had a little lamb'' even once and never attempted to play it do you think he would be able to play it if he reads the notes? edit: Here more to this: I can already do the fundamentals freely. Now most advanced tricks can be broken down to be a combination of these fundamentals. Now if I learned a advanced trick of a certain complexity I can learn tricks of similar complexity without spending time on actively learning the trick, because I can control the pen to this amount of complexity. [B]btw: I think analysing and understanding a text is what they teach in school and it's ability that you are free to use. Then do so and try to understand before you just go writing your very first thoughts.[/B]
Read up on ad hominem arguments, it will help you sound more intelligent at least. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:16:40
I was not taking time to properly read or analyse what he wrote as that is what he did with my text. Most of my text is my own experience. What you do with that is up to you. The conclusion I draw at the end can of course be wrong, but Mats claimed that most of my text was wrong, even though the conclusion is but a small part of my text. He didn't even care to read properly and just put whatever he felt like would be necessary. @eurocracy Using what you already learned in a new way is the process called learning. It's what you do in school. You get information, you use the information, you put different pieces of information together to get new information. That's the process that is called learning. Key3 could do sonic and inv sonic. He put the two together to create the Flushsonic. He learned something new by combining what he already knew. edit: Just to mention this: Giving arguments is not enough to get a good grade at a test. You need to provide information that backs up your argument. That's why teachers use ''explain'' so much.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:21:09
No, in school you learn things, you get an exam at the end and they test how much you know about it. You are not there to make new discoveries. Key3 came up with a hybrid called the flush sonic, we don't have mr. Key3 here with us to tell us what method he used to learn it, not an example. The technique used to perform a flush sonic was not as simple as accidentally doing it, you had attempted it afterwards after flexibility training. It is actually not a hard trick to learn, it just requires flexibility and knowledge of how it works. It does not need as much fine motor control you don't already have, though it does need practice to stop it looking like it's unstable and unsmooth, just like every penspinning trick. This passive learning is going nowhere. When people ask you what they should do to learn the trick, you say PRACTICE, not 'oh it's alright you'll magically learn it over time doing other things'. Also with Mats, you ignored what he said because he previously said you were wrong, yeah okay, superb logic! Clearly you can know that he ignored everything you wrote by INGORING him.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:26:40
@eurocracy Well then school in UK doesn't seem like it's very tough. Here in Germany it is common for teachers to give assignments to students for which they have to make new discoveries on their own. It's one of the required difficulties that [B]has[/B] to be included in exams. So with what the students know they have to learn something new on their own.
eurocracy wrote: This passive learning is going nowhere. When people ask you what they should do to learn the trick, you say PRACTICE, not 'oh it's alright you'll magically learn it over time doing other things'. Also with Mats, you ignored what he said because he previously said you were wrong, yeah okay, superb logic! Clearly you can know that he ignored everything you wrote by INGORING him.
Yes superb logic indeed. It's what I like to do with people who act stupid in my opinion. I just confront them with the same attitude they show to me to show them just how ridiculous they are behaving. Also I don't tell people to practice when they want to learn a trick. I tell them to try not to be bothered by it to much, because it will come to them naturally after some time. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:31:05
We are in the top 10 for education in the world, Germany is not, don't try talking shit on our system. That is RESEARCH, you don't have to practice anything physical and you can't apply that to pen spinning as the equivalent would be watching lots of YouTube videos. And you're researching, not coming up with any new discoveries, you are not scientists.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 16:39:08
I never claimed that my theory has no holes or that it cannot be wrong. I already stated that it can be wrong, but if you think that is the case I want argmunets that are backed by information, not just random facts that you put there, because it's easy. And I didn't say that the UK was stupid. I said that the school doesn't seem to expect the students to to stuff on the same level as in German schools. What comes after that in university etc may well be on a higher standart, but that was not what I was talking about. After all schools in the UK allow students to choose what they want to learn much earlier so they have more specific knowledge as opposed to a broader amount of knowledge that is not as specific. I put what I know from my experience and came to the most logical explanation that was possible for me. It is FACT that I don't spend much time on actual penspinning, but I still improve and learn tricks and linkages without doing active practice. So the most logical explanation I can come up with is that FOR ME just not bothering with actual practice turns out to be more effective. After all I spend way less time doing something yet I still get good enough results. edit: Yeah and you people should stop to write things in a way I didn't write them. Just because I write that I found a red flower you don't have to assume that I painted it like that just so I could tell you I found a red flower. This is a comparison btw. Use what you see and what you know.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 19:03:03
Well it seems to me that ChainBreak's argument in his initial post, was that passive practice is more effective than active learning.
But that was the time I found later to be the time I improved the most.
So after spending some time on research about this topic I found out that even if I didn't do any actual practice at all my brain would process the information on the movements I saw and by understanding the core principle of the tricks execution I was able to do what I saw before.
Passive learning > active learning
Ok. Now my point was, anyone who reaches a high level in skill always does huge amounts of what you would call 'active' practice, while not even feeling the need to comment on 'passive' practice. i.e. Passive practice is a bad way to learn and the best way to learn is through long hours of focused, active practicing. I am not however, suggesting your technique does not work, simply that it only works to a very limited extent and that counter to your original post's point, active practice is the better, more effective learning method. Edit:but if you think that is the case I want argmunets that are backed by information, not just random facts
I found that pretty amusing. Facts are information. In fact, by calling something a 'fact', you presume it to be true. Facts are probably the best of all information that one could back up an argument with! -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 19:21:56
If I may butt in. I think both are correct. You can watch someone do a trick, and take note of their hand movement, finger position, speed, and ending finger placement to get the general idea of how the trick is correctly done for completion. That's why a good tutorial adds that information, but you still have to practice it to familiarize your fingers with the information you took note of. And sorry if I've completely misunderstood the argument at hand.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 21:17:55
Mats;236653]Well it seems to me that ChainBreak's argument in his initial post, was that passive practice is more effective than active learning.[/QUOTE] Not more effective, but rather more efficient, since you get good results with minimal time spent on practice. But I'm happy to see that you understand what I wrote. Btw that ''random facts'' : I tried to express that people just write random stuff directed at what I wrote, but don't really understand the topic I want to discuss thus providing really unnecessary information that has close to no relation to the topic. Like this the facts provided dont even back up their arguments. If they are I dont see any connection at all which means they would have to further explain in how far their facts are connected to their arguments. [QUOTE=spenpinner wrote: If I may butt in. I think both are correct. You can watch someone do a trick, and take note of their hand movement, finger position, speed, and ending finger placement to get the general idea of how the trick is correctly done for completion. That's why a good tutorial adds that information, but you still have to practice it to familiarize your fingers with the information you took note of. And sorry if I've completely misunderstood the argument at hand.
Well what I do is really just look at a trick then just keep spinning like I was before and sometimes I find that I use the tricks I have seen in combos without having spend time learning the movement actively. So I am able to learn new stuff just by looking at it and not changing any of my spinning actively. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 22:15:27
So in conclusion, if you want to get good at pen spinning, there's no easy way out. Either, spend huge amounts of time practicing and get really good, or don't and don't.
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Date: Fri, Dec 7 2012 22:25:19
No really I read what s777 wrote about himself on FPSB and how much time he spend on penspinning. He spend less time than most and still managed to become WT winner. You can look it up yourself and use google translator if you don't understand French. The translation is not the best, but you get what is meant.
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Date: Sat, Dec 8 2012 01:06:39
ChainBreak wrote: Here one example: After trying to learn the flushsonic for some time I felt like it was impossible to do. But after stretching my fingers for a couple of months even without doing the exact flushsonic movement I was able to execute it almost perfectly during freestyling. During that time I still didn't know a lot about linkages so I was just happy doing the trick itself. Another more recent example: I first watched kin's linkage of palm up charge ~ spiderspin about a year ago. A couple of days ago I did just that link, even though I didn't try doing it for about 9 months.
Shit it happened exactly the same to me :O