UPSB v4
Serious Discussion / UPSB PF Debate #2
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 02:26:05
Topic: Big box retailers benefit the communities in which they are located. @Chobi will debate the "con" (that the topic is false) You both post 700 (max) word comments to this thread with your initial arguments. After both are posted, you have 48 hours to post 700 word (max) rebuttals (that don't introduce new arguments, only address your opponent's arguments) After that you'll both post 300 word (max) conclusions. Do both parties agree?
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 02:41:21
sounds good. When are the initial arguments due?
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 02:42:41
let's say 72 hours after both people agree. If you don't want to post them where your opponent can see, you can PM it to me
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 02:48:13
Never come across a topic like this. Sounds good
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 02:55:16
I'll judge the round. Make sure you rebut all of each other's arguments, a weak argument that goes unchallenged will be scored higher than a strong one that gets rebutted. Evidence (statistics and other proof) can be used to BACK UP arguments, but not in lieu of arguments (meaning if someone logically explains why a point is right, the other person can't just throw a stat out as a rebuttal, they can use a stat INSIDE of an argument). If both sides use reasonable logic, and only one side has a stat, they'll be scored higher. Any other questions? :)
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 17:21:43
Is there a maximum number of arguments? Or whatever fits 700 words?
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 17:33:42
Whatever you think is most convincing inside 700 words saying 15 arguments one right after the other isn't very convincing though if you don't take the time to explain them well
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Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 18:01:14
strat1227 wrote: Whatever you think is most convincing inside 700 words saying 15 arguments one right after the other isn't very convincing though if you don't take the time to explain them well
Just wanted to clear things up lol chill strat :( Alright, got it -
Date: Fri, Apr 27 2012 18:16:41
Chobi wrote: Just wanted to clear things up lol chill strat :( Alright, got it
Lol .. I was just answering your question with an example... I wasn't "un-chill" :P Ask whatever questions you have haha, I wasn't being mean or anything O.o -
Date: Sun, Apr 29 2012 04:47:20
1 day left! Get your arguments in! @Awesome
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Date: Mon, Apr 30 2012 19:13:44
@Chobi you both accepted, don't back out now ... need arguments
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Date: Mon, Apr 30 2012 20:51:03
Big box retailers bring many benefits to the communities in which they are located, these include more jobs, tax revenue and convenience for shoppers. A big box retail store employs many workers; a retail store I worked for had 250~ employees for example. These jobs can help low income families make ends meet as well as providing part time openings for students. The work opportunities can reduce poverty in the community. Big box retailers pay taxes. These taxes can then be used to better the local community. The tax revenue helps make the community richer and more services can be provided to the local residents thanks to big box retailers. Parks can be built, trees can be planted, and sick people can be helped with the tax money big box retailers pay. Big box retailers can provide significantly lower prices than small stores. Big box retailers have significant power to negotiate with and purchases goods in large quantities. This can provide the lowest prices for goods and offers huge saving potential for local shoppers. More money in the locals pockets makes for a happier community. Big box retailers provide a one stop shopping experience which saves shoppers time. Also big box retailers have longer hours than more traditional stores. This makes them much more convenient for shoppers and saves them time and gas. The convenience provided can make shopping easier for the disabled and elderly, for people with out personal transportation and people who work long hours. Smaller stores can not accommodate to such needs. Big box retailers mean more money for the community they are in, cheaper prices for shoppers, and convenience for locals. Big box retailers should be a welcome addition to any community.
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Date: Tue, May 1 2012 20:16:37
@Chobi you have 18 hours to submit before you're disqualified
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Date: Wed, May 2 2012 17:34:40
@Awesome you win. I'll pair you in the next debate against the winner of debate #1 so we know your next opponent is actually committed and will submit (assuming you want another round)
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Date: Thu, May 3 2012 02:58:28
strat1227 wrote: @Awesome you win. I'll pair you in the next debate against the winner of debate #1 so we know your next opponent is actually committed and will submit (assuming you want another round)
Sounds good. Can I get feedback and a judging as if the round actually took place? -
Date: Thu, May 3 2012 03:06:08
@Awesome it was a really well structured case for someone who doesn't do debate imo The only suggestions I have is say "my first argument is" and "my second argument is" etc so it's very very clear when you're moving on to a new point, and maybe you could add some stats (the personal example was pretty good but doesn't really count as 'evidence' since it's just one store) The biggest thing people usually forget to to is provide 'impact' for their arguments, and you did that well. You said "This is true, and THIS IS WHY IT MATTERS", which is really the most important part without seeing his case/rebuttal and your rebuttal it's hard to give much feedback, but your initial case was pretty good imo
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Date: Thu, May 3 2012 03:42:31
Explicitly saying "my first argument is..." just seems cheesy, however I could use more connector phrases like "furthermore", "moving on", etc. to help tie arguments together. I never been sure on using them since they are phrases that don't close paragraphs well nor do they open well; I never know where to put them =/
strat1227 wrote: @Awesome it was a really well structured case for someone who doesn't do debate imo The only suggestions I have is say "my first argument is" and "my second argument is" etc so it's very very clear when you're moving on to a new point, and maybe you could add some stats (the personal example was pretty good but doesn't really count as 'evidence' since it's just one store) The biggest thing people usually forget to to is provide 'impact' for their arguments, and you did that well. You said "This is true, and THIS IS WHY IT MATTERS", which is really the most important part without seeing his case/rebuttal and your rebuttal it's hard to give much feedback, but your initial case was pretty good imo
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Date: Thu, May 3 2012 03:50:07
Awesome wrote: Explicitly saying "my first argument is..." just seems cheesy, however I could use more connector phrases like "furthermore", "moving on", etc. to help tie arguments together. I never been sure on using them since they are phrases that don't close paragraphs well nor do they open well; I never know where to put them =/
Yeah you need to "signpost" is the phrase we used in our team. there's nothing wrong with explicitly separating your arguments, but if you dont like saying it in that way you can use something like "the first main thing you need to consider is _____" and phrases like that. In type you can just space it out like you did but that doesn't work when you read aloud lol -
Date: Thu, May 3 2012 04:00:53
ok I get it then, so I don't have to worry about it in this written format. I think "signposting" too explicitly waters down the argument since it takes up space, and shows excessive planning in the argument which makes appeals to emotions harder.
strat1227 wrote: Yeah you need to "signpost" is the phrase we used in our team. there's nothing wrong with explicitly separating your arguments, but if you dont like saying it in that way you can use something like "the first main thing you need to consider is _____" and phrases like that. In type you can just space it out like you did but that doesn't work when you read aloud lol
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Date: Thu, May 3 2012 04:10:46
Awesome wrote: ok I get it then, so I don't have to worry about it in this written format. I think "signposting" too explicitly waters down the argument since it takes up space, and shows excessive planning in the argument which makes appeals to emotions harder.
It's a necessary evil though, because I GUARANTEE YOU that if you don't signpost and have taglines, the person you're talking to will forget at least 1 of your 3 (or 4) arguments. Every time. You have to be very clear what your main points are, even if it takes a bit away from other things, you HAVE to do it in spoken debates or they won't ever remember -
Date: Thu, May 3 2012 04:15:16
Ok so I see it as anchoring your arguments to numbers as a mnemonic for the audience. Also can you recommend some pro debaters for me to watch? I've only read a bit of Aristotle's Rhetoric and am acquainted with argumental fallacies so any resources to improve would be appreciated.
strat1227 wrote: It's a necessary evil though, because I GUARANTEE YOU that if you don't signpost and have taglines, the person you're talking to will forget at least 1 of your 3 (or 4) arguments. Every time. You have to be very clear what your main points are, even if it takes a bit away from other things, you HAVE to do it in spoken debates or they won't ever remember
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Date: Thu, May 3 2012 04:20:33
Awesome wrote: Ok so I see it as anchoring your arguments to numbers as a mnemonic for the audience. Also can you recommend some pro debaters for me to watch? I've only read a bit of Aristotle's Rhetoric and am acquainted with argumental fallacies so any resources to improve would be appreciated.
You mean like legit pf debate rounds? or just like logical resources? -
Date: Thu, May 3 2012 04:21:40
I would be more interested in verbal debates with the best debaters. Rhetorical/logical resources would be good too.
strat1227 wrote: You mean like legit pf debate rounds? or just like logical resources?
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Date: Thu, May 3 2012 04:24:19
@Awesome here's the finals round from a tournament I was in, i lost in the semi's to the team that speaks 2nd in this video http://www.schooltube.com/video/c4a03941b00b4ffba6c2/